Originally Posted by Stirchley (Post 2157558)
He started this whole venture to provide financial security for those he knew he was going to leave behind.
Every time he has to choose between his pride and his stated reasons for doing these things, he chooses his pride. |
Originally Posted by Stirchley (Post 2157558)
Okay, but it’s not tit-for-tat in a marriage. He wasn’t happy so she ended up not being happy was not what Walt ever intended. He started this whole venture to provide financial security for those he knew he was going to leave behind.
Funny thought: nobody ever discusses Hank & Marie’s marriage although it was a huge part of the show. And we glimpsed only a few seconds of what Marie’s life as a widow is like. Strange omission, IMO. Fair point about H&M. I have discussed it with people out loud, but I would agree it doesn’t pop up that often. Also I’ve always felt they were generally well-aligned and reasonably happy, at least prior to his injury, so it’s just a less contentious topic. |
Re: Breaking Bad
Re: Hank. His evolution from fratty cliche to genuinely deep and interesting character is one of my favorite things about the show.
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Originally Posted by Yoda (Post 2157560)
That's what he says, of course, at least to himself, but it's pretty clear by the end that it was a rationalization and that he does what he does out of bitterness and pride. There are several points in the series where he has the chance to get out and still see his family taken care of, but would have to swallow his pride to do so...and he refuses, every time. From refusing Gretchen and Elliot's hand out in the first season to asking Gus "...or else what?" after he's given a way to leave the drug business after having made tons of money already.
Every time he has to choose between his pride and his stated reasons for doing these things, he chooses his pride. |
Originally Posted by Yoda (Post 2157560)
That's what he says, of course, at least to himself, but it's pretty clear by the end that it was a rationalization and that he does what he does out of bitterness and pride. There are several points in the series where he has the chance to get out and still see his family taken care of, but would have to swallow his pride to do so...and he refuses, every time. From refusing Gretchen and Elliot's hand out in the first season to asking Gus "...or else what?" after he's given a way to leave the drug business after having made tons of money already.
Every time he has to choose between his pride and his stated reasons for doing these things, he chooses his pride. I don’t see why he should take a “hand out” from Gretchen & Elliot. He felt rightly or wrongly that he had been cheated by them. I don’t think I would take a handout from them in these circumstances. He got them in the end so to me that was satisfying. Walt changed drastically & dramatically. He loved his Heisenberg rôle & was so proud of being “I am the one who knocks”, as he boasted to Skyler. Prideful, if you like, but it was the first time in over a decade since he had felt this way. |
Originally Posted by Yoda (Post 2157566)
Re: Hank. His evolution from fratty cliche to genuinely deep and interesting character is one of my favorite things about the show.
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Originally Posted by Stirchley (Post 2157570)
I did say this was Walt’s intention “When he started this whole venture”. I don’t think this was at all a “rationalization” at that time.
Originally Posted by Stirchley (Post 2157570)
I don’t see why he should take a “hand out” from Gretchen & Elliot.
It's very interesting seeing other characters realize things about Walt he hasn't even admitted to himself, like when the ever-perceptive Gus keeps him working with his whole "a man provides" speech.
Originally Posted by Stirchley (Post 2157570)
He felt rightly or wrongly that he had been cheated by them. I don’t think I would take a handout from them in these circumstances. He got them in the end so to me that was satisfying.
Anyway, here's an article where showrunner Vince Gillian talks about the Gretchen and Elliot stuff. In short, he didn't think of them as the bad guys and didn't intend us to, and Walt leaves the company because of his rampant inferiority complex. Death of the Author and all that, but hopefully people find it interesting. |
Originally Posted by Stirchley (Post 2157572)
Totally mine too. His arc became so very dark. Gomez his buddy was a very well-drawn rôle too.
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Originally Posted by Yoda (Post 2157576)
Good addendum, I briefly forgot about "Gomey." Hallmark of a great show when secondary or even tertiary characters are so well written.
Let’s not forget poor old Gale. Very well-written character. |
Originally Posted by Yoda (Post 2157575)
...there was obviously a real frog-boiling aspect to the way a lot of viewers cheered for Walt ...
Gretchen and Elliot stuff - In short, he didn't think of them as the bad guys and didn't intend us to, and Walt leaves the company because of his rampant inferiority complex.
Am not gonna go back & look for this, but didn’t Walt take a cash payment from them so he could pay his rent or some such? Some ludicrously small amount, but one he needed badly? I didn’t interpret this as him feeling inferior & I suspect it wasn’t too long before he realized his mistake. |
Originally Posted by Stirchley (Post 2157584)
What a strange expression. “Frog-boiling” is something I have never heard before.
Originally Posted by Stirchley (Post 2157584)
Am not gonna go back & look for this, but didn’t Walt take a cash payment from them so he could pay his rent or some such? Some ludicrously small amount, but one he needed badly? I didn’t interpret this as him feeling inferior & I suspect it wasn’t too long before he realized his mistake.
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Originally Posted by Yoda (Post 2157575)
Anyway, here's an article where showrunner Vince Gillian talks about the Gretchen and Elliot stuff. In short, he didn't think of them as the bad guys and didn't intend us to, and Walt leaves the company because of his rampant inferiority complex. Death of the Author and all that, but hopefully people find it interesting.
Guess I’m not good at “gleaning” since I didn’t glean this at all. It doesn’t matter though. That’s the fun of seeing a great show like this: there’s so many ways to interpret scenes even if one interprets them entirely differently from the person who actually wrote them. |
Originally Posted by Stirchley (Post 2157702)
Guess I’m not good at “gleaning” since I didn’t glean this at all. It doesn’t matter though. That’s the fun of seeing a great show like this: there’s so many ways to interpret scenes even if one interprets them entirely differently from the person who actually wrote them.
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Oh, to be clear, I wasn't saying all that back story stuff about Gretchen and Elliott was obvious, or meant to be clear to the average viewer (I either missed or forgot the stuff about her being wealthy already). But I think the bit about Walt's pique and his bitter reaction, and the part where his pride stops him from doing what's best for his family even early on, despite his stated goals, definitely is.
I do really like the idea that our perception of them can shift based on whether we adopt the "protagonist as hero" posture or not, though, or more likely have that shift over time. |
The great German author Thomas Mann (The Magic Mountain, Death in Venice, etc.) once wrote an essay in which he told us he was flabbergasted (gobsmacked in Brit speak) by the interpretations of his writing by his readers.
He told us that so many readers wrote to him with their own interpretations of many of his chapters. He realized that his readers were right: they saw meanings in his writings (especially The Magic Mountain) that he never knew were there. Far from disagreeing with his readers (after all, he was the writer), he usually agreed with them & relished their interpretations of his work. Interesting to apply this to movies & tv. |
Re: Breaking Bad
Yeah, Death of the Author, they often call it. My reaction to that idea depends a lot on the specifics. Insofar as it means the work stands alone and the author's intent is not automatically the truth of the thing, I say fair enough. To some it seems to mean that there are no data points outside of the work, up to and including the creator's intent, which goes a bit too far for my taste (not that anyone here is saying that).
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Originally Posted by Yoda (Post 2158681)
Yeah, Death of the Author, they often call it.
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Originally Posted by Stirchley (Post 2158703)
I never heard this phrase before. 🙂
And I'm an author. It's a little scary. :D :D At least it's not literal. It's not literal, is it?? :D |
Originally Posted by Stirchley (Post 2158703)
I never heard this phrase before. 🙂
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