Christopher Nolan vs David Fincher

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Finally got round to watching The Prestige last night. I thought it was good, but not great. I think I would have enjoyed it more if I hadn't known some of the plot twists in advance, but a film really should be more than the sum of its twists anyway.

The main problems I had with it: I didn't buy the whole clone machine thing. I just felt like the film was about tricks and should have stayed about tricks, it just didn't convince me. Scarlett Johansson's character was a bit lacking in character. Christian Bale's mockney accent wasn't always entirely convincing. Altogether it was a little bit too self-satisfied, like with the repetition of Caine's 'every trick has three parts' at the end.

My main problem was a moral one; I know I am limiting myself in my choice of films, here, but I find it hard to warm to films where the characters are so irredeemably horrible as they are in The Prestige. They go on about sacrifices in pursuit of their obsessions, but it is other people's feelings and lives they are sacrificing every time.

My theories on some of the 'plot holes' mentioned on this thread...The twins came up with the 'transported man' trick when they are really young, before they start working as magicians - Borden mentions it when they are working together for the magician at the start, a trick nobody else can do. They probably had a perfectly normal childhood, then made the pact before leaving home to work as magicians.

As for whether the original Angier dies when he makes the first clone: it doesn't matter. Each clone is Angier, so he always is the man in the box and the one taking the bow.

What I did like about the 'misdirection' of the film, is how Borden in his diary refers to 'we', and Angier (and the audience) assume he means himself and Angier, when actually he means himself and his twin.

Oh, and although it was fairly well directed, still wouldn't class Nolan as an 'auteur'. Fincher for me out of the two



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Fincher


Se7en - *****
Fight Club - *****
The Game - ****
Zodiac - ***1/2
Panic Room - ***

Nolan

Batman Begins - ****
The Prestige - ***1/2
Memento - ***

It's kind of easily Fincher, in my eyes.



DAVID FINCHER, definitely. But Nolan does have some strong films.

NOLAN'S FILMS (out of 5)
Following (1998) - ****
Memento (2000) - ****
Insomnia (2002) - *****
Batman Begins (2005) - **1/2
The Prestige (2006) - ***1/2

FINCHER'S FILMS
Se7en (1995) - *****
Fight Club (1999) - *****
Panic Room (2002) - ****1/2
Zodiac (2007) - ***1/2
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What did you think of Fincher's The Game?
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SPOILER WARNING:
OKAY, I DON'T WANT TO BOTHER WITH MULTIPLE SPOILER TAGS SO I'LL JUST PUT UP THIS DISCLAIMER: DON'T READ FURTHER IF YOU DON'T WANT TO HAVE ANY MOVIES BY FINCHER OR NOLAN SPOILED.



Here're my evaluations for these two talented guys.

David Fincher:

Alien 3:
Don't remember this well. I liked it back in 1993 or whenever I saw it but haven't watched it since. The few bits I've seen of it on cable tv reruns haven't really convinced me I need to watch it again.
C-

Se7en:
I'm not a huge fan of it. Solid acting (except for Freeman who is supposed to be the moral counterweight for Spacey, but I just can't stand him as an actor. He's the same in every damn movie.) Very stylish and the twist ending is effective but pretty simple compared with the better works by either director. Glad I saw it once but it's another one I'm not going to rush back to.
C+

The Game:
I've only ever seen this on tv reruns but I like it. Stylish, well acted and I love the conspiracy angle. I kind of think of it as the inverse of Se7en, in which the twist was that the lone malevolent whacko conspires against the system and wins. Here it conspires against him and he loses, but the conspiracy turns out benevolent. I much prefer this take. If I ever see it the way it was meant to be seen I'll probably like it more.
B

Fight Club:
I can watch this movie over and over. I think it's truly a breakthrough for Fincher. I love the idea of having the hero be imagined into the story as an idealized self for the narrator and it was pulled off very well here. A few complaints: I didn't find Marla Singer as appealing as I think she should have been and I'm not sure I blame Carter (she's been very appealing in other movies); also felt the romantic ending was a bit of a let down and the manner in which Norton "kills" Pitt was a little clumsy. Still, an exceptional movie for 90% of the time.
A-

Panic Room:
This is another letdown. it starts out very well and has one of the coolest and most intricate shots in recent cinema (that bit where the camera swoops down 3 flights of stares, follows the action outside through the windows, zooms through the ring on a coffee mug etc.), but the rest I'll forget.
C

Zodiac:
My favorite, so far. Very, very effective procedural that avoids explanation in favor of description. The stuff Fincher chose to leave out and a couple well-placed red herrings (which he can get away with to an extent since it was based on a true story) add to the creepiness and paradoxically make the movie world more real. Also nice to see that Fincher can choose to turn down some of the more ostentatious aspects of his style when needed, while still giving the movie a very distinctive look (that overhead shot tracking the taxi, for instance).
A

Christopher Nolan:

Memento:
Very cleverly structured, intricate cinematic puzzle. Interesting story too, as it leaves you to figure out which parts and which characters of the story are real and which are imagined. I think it surpasses Fight Club a little in engineered ambiguity but isn't as enjoyable to watch and without any of the clever and unique style. I slightly prefer Fight Club but this is very close.
A-

Insomnia:
This was a real disappointment. Though it is a competent mystery with a somewhat bleak tone, I cannot recommend what is effectively a watered down version of a much better film, with better known but less talented actors. Everything about this movie is inferior to the original, most especially that it downplays the ambiguous mood that made the scandinavian version so creepy. To make matters worse, It's got none of the clever narrative tricks that separate his best films from the flocks of slick but mediocre thrillers. Don't even stop to look and just move on to the original version. Or, if you want a good story about an antihero trying to evade the law and his own inner demons, with more subtle acting (especially from Garofalo), check out The Minus Man.
D+

Batman Begins:
I think this is also a bit of a disappointment in that it has a pretty simple, straightforward narrative but it's still a pretty cool movie. Far more stylish than Burton's overrated first entry in the franchise.
B-

The Prestige:
A real return to form for Nolan. The flashback structure is not as noticeable as in Memento but just as cool and complex. This time it's interlocking diaries from warring magicians, and I really appreciate the tight link between the structure and content of the mystery (the diaries used as weapons in the war). As for the disguise trick, well, if Christie/Wilder/Dietrich can get away with it, I don't see why Priest/Nolan/Bale can't. I think it's funner to watch than Memento, and would probably place it on even keel with Fight club.
A-



How do you address the compliants with The Prestige people have in this thread? I can't understand why it's rated to highly.



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How do you address the compliants with The Prestige people have in this thread? I can't understand why it's rated to highly.
The Prestige was made to look complex to hide the weak movie.

Nolan was trying to confuse the viewer in order to make them think there was depth there that never existed.



Okay, I'll bite. I can't reply to everything in the thread, but here's a review (of sorts) comparing The Prestige with The Illusionist (I like both but much prefer the former). I kind of doubt if it answers everyone's complaints satisfactorily, but hopefully it clarifies why I rate it so highly (I assumed that Pyro's confusion came from my evaluation, since by the majority of posts in this thread The Prestige doesn't seem too highly regarded).

WARNING, THIS POST CONTAINS COPIOUS SPOILERS FOR THE PRESTIGE, AND ONE (WELL-MARKED) SPOILER FOR INSOMNIA (1997).


First, I'm impressed with the manifold tricks used to engage the viewer in The Prestige. The diaries, the many kinds of doubles, multi-level ruminations on what's real and what isn't, the special effects and nonlinear plot: Nolan's uses many narrative and visual devices to fool the audience and he wants you to know it. In The Prestige, the bag of tricks isn't just the invisible strings and levers that operate the props for our amusement, it is part of the act.

Sedai called Nolan's movie "studied, and mechanical" (in comparison to the Illusionist). Perhaps it seems so but I disagree. The Prestige does two things expertly, and each one makes the other stronger: it uses, and simultaneously is about the craft of deception, abandoning sympathetic characters and love stories, except for the exigencies of the plot. There is a love story of sorts here, but it's between performers and their single minded passion for revealing each other's artifice, so it doesn't really give you a resolution to feel happy about afterwords (unless you hate the movie in which case you would be happy that it is over).

As for the style, I wouldn't call the movie "mechanical", but rather "workmanlike". If the Illusionist is a movie about a man who fools people using lovely images (and uses lovely images while fooling us), The Prestige goes one further, foregrounding the drab-textured backstage and the streets of London and warping the act so far that it's no longer possible to distinguish between what is and isn't part of the show. The twist here adds more layers of deception, mixing both real (Angier's transported man) and fake (Borden's transported man) magic, and also trying to make things that are in fact (in the story) real magic look fake while making fake magic look like the real thing (and considering how far revealing your technique and tools can further the deception). It also goes further in making the magician's "real" lives a part of the act. In The Illusionist what is real and what is fake is pretty clear at the end, in The Prestige it is much more complicated.

Certain junctures in the story that may or may not have come about intentionally feed the obsession (the knot. Did Borden know and if so which Borden?). While The Illusionist takes great care to explain motivations, The Prestige takes a much harder path. It tries to wrap you up in the rivalry between the characters (successfully, for me anyway) while making their motivation the hardest element to smoke out, because after a point even they no longer know why they started or why they're continuing the rivalry. In a way this is similar with the muddling of intention done in the original Insomnia (which is oddly one of the things Nolan downplayed in his remake [don't read the rest of this paragraph if you don't want Insomnia spoiled]), where at the end you're left to ponder whether Stellan Skarsgard shot his partner on purpose and whether he even knows anymore. I liked the original Insomnia better than The Prestige, by the way.

Tesla vs. Edison. I loved this back ground. It says that yeah, all the main drama in the story is basically just a bunch of pranks between two pompous showmen, but these pranks are reflected in the much larger and more important war of the currents between Westinghouse-backed Nikola Tesla and Thomas Edison. I like this part because it very economically tells an interesting side story that also fleshes out the milieu, and I appreciate how it portrays Edison as some unseen gangster-scientist, obsessed with deception much like the magicians and perhaps for similarly selfish reasons. Particularly amusing is the theatricality of the scene where Edison (?) plants members in the audience at the London expo to discredit Tesla. Some people complained that the fantasy aspect of this side story became too far fetched at the end, but it is interesting in that Tesla really was a genius and did claim all sorts of bizarre and mystical experimental results later in his life (and died in relative obscurity, though his alternating current did eventually win out over Edison's direct current) and makes it a good science fiction movie too. Yet another reflection of this theme of blurring reality and imagination, but this time in the real-life story of a great scientist whose work changed lives, but who at the same time propounds all these bizarre fanciful theories.

So yeah, I really dug this movie. I watched it 3 and a half times and don't regret any of the time I invested in it. Not that I'm that interested in the debate over who is and isn't an auteur, but as a brief note, I read the Priest novel after seeing the movie, and thought all of Nolan's changes were improvements. And I liked the book too.



Tesla was a real chap then? With the fictional device he made figured he was as well. Might add an interesting dimension for a rewatch.

Although i can appreciate the relevance the Tesla Cloning Machine adds to the depth for comparisons and such but i still can't buy into the pure science fiction when a lot of the film's themes are about realism, feel that in the end it undermines that concept. That is unless it's viewed as an actual science fiction film and then it's weak. I'm sure i might be re-iterating points already made but can't remember getting response on it from a fan.



Tesla was a real chap then? With the fictional device he made figured he was as well. Might add an interesting dimension for a rewatch.

Although i can appreciate the relevance the Tesla Cloning Machine adds to the depth for comparisons and such but i still can't buy into the pure science fiction when a lot of the film's themes are about realism, feel that in the end it undermines that concept. That is unless it's viewed as an actual science fiction film and then it's weak. I'm sure i might be re-iterating points already made but can't remember getting response on it from a fan.

See, this is where you have to give The Prestige another chance, mate. It's hard to appreciate the full quality of this film if you don't accept the science fiction aspect to it. I know it seems odd in comparison to the earlier themes and tricks displayed in the film, but like Linepasly said, it works extremely well on both levels when you consider the theme of distorted reality vs actual reality.

Oh, by the way linepalsy, that was a FANTASTIC post and gave a very insightful perspective. Good job.



The science fiction part is so seperated from the rest though, it's almost as if it's been edited in from another film. I just don't think the two genres are handled well in conjunction but will now rewatch it and give it another chance.



My thoughts on The Prestige...

My personal problems weren't with the plot itself, but with the execution of the plot. It felt like it was intended to be this gripping psychological thriller, and it was really quite underwhelming and dull. Don't get me wrong, I love subtlety and different sensibilities within genres, but I found that The Prestige lacked dramatic flair and proper plot structure. I was also rather uninterested in both Jackman's and Bale's characters - they were both too uni-focused and self-involved for my liking.



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Registered User
My thoughts on The Prestige...

My personal problems weren't with the plot itself, but with the execution of the plot. It felt like it was intended to be this gripping psychological thriller, and it was really quite underwhelming and dull. Don't get me wrong, I love subtlety and different sensibilities within genres, but I found that The Prestige lacked dramatic flair and proper plot structure. I was also rather uninterested in both Jackman's and Bale's characters - they were both too uni-focused and self-involved for my liking.
The execution of the plot was what bothered me too. Nolan was too concerned with making an intellectual and clever movie rather than a powerful emotional one.

keeping the directing simple would have been more enjoyable.

I was just as baffled as jackmans character in trying to work out the transported man (i do a little magic myself and know how certain tricks work) so was looking forward to see how bale done it.

caines charcter said a double was the only way, which jackman refused to accept cos it was too obvious and i agreed. There must have been some other unique method.
So when it was revealed it actually was a twin i was let down cos i have seen the twin brother/sister thing in other movies.

However, the movie would have been more effective if nolan had kept it simple.



...And if somebody else had filled Bale's role.
What in the world was wrong with Christian Bale's performance?