War in the Middle East

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Originally Posted by allthatglitters
Iran is itching to fight. Israel has one of the best militaries in the world. Whether Israel bombs the Iranian embassy or not is not dependant on whether their military is good enough. I also do not think that Israel underestimates a regime that calls for its annihilation. The restrained (yes, it has been rather restrained) policies that Israel has been carrying out in the past has perhaps set the stage for this present conflict says one article in The Economist. Israel will engage Iran now, before Iran finishes building the nukes that are meant for them.
Well, i'm not going to argue with you because you are set ont he fact that Israel has the upperhand here and is merely going to wipe away its enemies.

I stand by my opinion that Iran is the toughest opponent that Israel could choose to piss off, and it will have a hard time dealing with Iran should they no longer have "restrained" policies. Let the news and headlines in the coming days prove my point.
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Δύο άτομα. Μια μάχη. Κανένας συμβιβασμός.



Originally Posted by Equilibrium
Well, i'm not going to argue with you because you are set ont he fact that Israel has the upperhand here and is merely going to wipe away its enemies.
Oh no, Iran is a very tough opponent. Mostly because it's something of a loose canon, although not as much as North Korea.

I stand by my opinion that Iran is the toughest opponent that Israel could choose to piss off, and it will have a hard time dealing with Iran should they no longer have "restrained" policies. Let the news and headlines in the coming days prove my point
Israel doesn't choose to piss Iran off as much as they choose to be a Jewish state. If Israel goes to war with Iran, the United States will be there to help in a jiffy. If we didn't, I'd almost be ashamed of our two-faced loyalty to Israel.
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I am moved by fancies that are curled
Around these images, and cling:
The notion of some infinitely gentle
Infinitely suffering thing.
T.S Eliot, "Preludes"



You ready? You look ready.
All I know is that I would never want to be on the receiving end of an Israel attack. I mean just look at the numbers on the 6 Day War, Israel put a major hurt on 4 countries at the same time. Sure, the forces were combined, but still. They handed up a major @$$ whopping. If Israel isn't a military god, then Japan isn't the king of electronics.
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"This is that human freedom, which all boast that they possess, and which consists solely in the fact, that men are conscious of their own desire, but are ignorant of the causes whereby that desire has been determined." -Baruch Spinoza



Originally Posted by John McClane
All I know is that I would never want to be on the receiving end of an Israel attack. I mean just look at the numbers on the 6 Day War, Israel put a major hurt on 4 countries at the same time. Sure, the forces were combined, but still. They handed up a major @$$ whopping. If Israel isn't a military god, then Japan isn't the king of electronics.
Yea, israel does have an amazing military force but one nuke can change all of that man. This is bigger than you guys are willing to admit. Why do you think the US goes through so much trouble to keep nukes out of countries' reach? once a country has nukes thats all it needs to make legitimate threats. A nuke is a nuke, whether its iran that owns it or israel. On this platform iran and israel are equal.



I'm not sure how much Israel can do about Iran, which is really outside the effective operational range of Israel's military. The IDF obviously can't get there with ground troops, and they have neither a long range missile capablity nor anything but short range tactical fighters in their air force. Iran is a long, long way to go in an F-16.



Originally Posted by John McClane
All I know is that I would never want to be on the receiving end of an Israel attack. I mean just look at the numbers on the 6 Day War, Israel put a major hurt on 4 countries at the same time. Sure, the forces were combined, but still. They handed up a major @$$ whopping. If Israel isn't a military god, then Japan isn't the king of electronics.
Bought a Jap PC lately?

I didn't think so.



I am having a nervous breakdance
Originally Posted by Equilibrium
A schematic of what the UN wanted Palestine to look like has nothing to do with what it ACTUALLY looked like. By 1947 it actually looked like a line going right down the middle.
Well, the map shows the official borders that UN lined out of Palestine. The notion of what it actually looked like probably differs a lot depending on if you ask an Israeli or if you ask a Palestinian. That's kind of the problem with this whole conflict. I was just pointing out, for instance, that The West Bank and Gaza really were areas belonging to Palestine the way the Brits constructed it. Jordan didn't even exist as a country back then, so how could The West Bank belong to them?

The point is that this map is significant today. If we somehow could make the Israelis and the Palestinians to peacefully go back to accepting the borders of 1947 and, for a period of time, put Jerusalem under international administration, then I think we might have at least a foundation of a successful peace process. The odds for that to actually happen aren't very good though when you look at the current situation in the area.
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The novelist does not long to see the lion eat grass. He realizes that one and the same God created the wolf and the lamb, then smiled, "seeing that his work was good".

--------

They had temporarily escaped the factories, the warehouses, the slaughterhouses, the car washes - they'd be back in captivity the next day but
now they were out - they were wild with freedom. They weren't thinking about the slavery of poverty. Or the slavery of welfare and food stamps. The rest of us would be all right until the poor learned how to make atom bombs in their basements.



Originally Posted by adidasss
i think the jews will sooner all die than give up Jerusalem...
And their oppositon would just as soon kill them for it.



yep...i think that's the main problem why Palestine isn't a state by now...each nation wants Jerusalem and considers it a sacred city....only i'm not sure if palestinians want the entire city or just the part the israelis occupied ( i forget which part )...the jews of course refuse to give any part of Jerusalem....and are forcefully trying to change the demographics of the city...an endless circle of violence....*sigh*



I am having a nervous breakdance
All the holy places in Jerusalem are basically situated at the same spot and that's the tricky part. And I don't think the Israelis will let go of the control of Jerusalem either, not even to a Western peace force.



Israel has repeatedly commited gross violations of human rights, and today they continue. Qana, bombed severly once again. For those of you who actually keep tabs on the Israeli atrocities...they massacred 105 UN civilians in qaNA in 1996. Today..37 children are dead because of yet another murderous action by the IDF: Story at CNN



Atrocities in the Promised Land

By KATHLEEN CHRISTISON
former CIA analyst

Words fail; ordinary terms are inadequate to describe the horrors Israel daily perpetrates, and has perpetrated for years, against the Palestinians. The tragedy of Gaza has been described a hundred times over, as have the tragedies of 1948, of Qibya, of Sabra and Shatila, of Jenin -- 60 years of atrocity perpetrated in the name of Judaism. But the horror generally falls on deaf ears in most of Israel, in the U.S. political arena, in the mainstream U.S. media. Those who are horrified -- and there are many -- cannot penetrate the shield of impassivity that protects the political and media elite in Israel, even more so in the U.S., and increasingly now in Canada and Europe, from seeing, from caring.

But it needs to be said now, loudly: those who devise and carry out Israeli policies have made Israel into a monster, and it has come time for all of us -- all Israelis, all Jews who allow Israel to speak for them, all Americans who do nothing to end U.S. support for Israel and its murderous policies -- to recognize that we stain ourselves morally by continuing to sit by while Israel carries out its atrocities against the Palestinians.

A nation that mandates the primacy of one ethnicity or religion over all others will eventually become psychologically dysfunctional. Narcissistically obsessed with its own image, it must strive to maintain its racial superiority at all costs and will inevitably come to view any resistance to this imagined superiority as an existential threat. Indeed, any other people automatically becomes an existential threat simply by virtue of its own existence. As it seeks to protect itself against phantom threats, the racist state becomes increasingly paranoid, its society closed and insular, intellectually limited. Setbacks enrage it; humiliations madden it. The state lashes out in a crazed effort, lacking any sense of proportion, to reassure itself of its strength.

The pattern played out in Nazi Germany as it sought to maintain a mythical Aryan superiority. It is playing out now in Israel. “This society no longer recognizes any boundaries, geographical or moral,” wrote Israeli intellectual and anti-Zionist activist Michel Warschawski in his 2004 book Towards an Open Tomb: The Crisis of Israeli Society. Israel knows no limits and is lashing out as it finds that its attempt to beat the Palestinians into submission and swallow Palestine whole is being thwarted by a resilient, dignified Palestinian people who refuse to submit quietly and give up resisting Israel’s arrogance.

We in the United States have become inured to tragedy inflicted by Israel, and we easily fall for the spin that automatically, by some trick of the imagination, converts

Israeli atrocities to examples of how Israel is victimized. But a military establishment that drops a 500-pound bomb on a residential apartment building in the middle of the night and kills 14 sleeping civilians, as happened in Gaza four years ago, is not a military that operates by civilized rules.

A military establishment that drops a 500-pound bomb on a house in the middle of the night and kills a man and his wife and seven of their children, as happened in Gaza four days ago, is not the military of a moral country.

A society that can brush off as unimportant an army officer’s brutal murder of a 13-year-old girl on the claim that she threatened soldiers at a military post -- one of nearly 700 Palestinian children murdered by Israelis since the intifada began -- is not a society with a conscience.

A government that imprisons a 15-year-old girl -- one of several hundred children in Israeli detention -- for the crime of pushing and running away from a male soldier trying to do a body search as she entered a mosque is not a government with any moral bearings. (This story, not the kind that ever appears in the U.S. media, was reported in the London Sunday Times. The girl was shot three times as she ran away and was convicted to 18 months in prison after she came out of a coma.)

Critics of Israel note increasingly that Israel is self-destructing, nearing a catastrophe of its own making. Israeli journalist Gideon Levy talks of a society in “moral collapse.”

Michel Warschawski writes of an “Israeli madness” and “insane brutality,” a “putrefaction” of civilized society, that have set Israel on a suicidal course. He foresees the end of the Zionist enterprise; Israel is a “gang of hoodlums,” he says, a state “that makes a mockery of legality and of civil morality. A state run in contempt of justice loses the strength to survive.”

As Warschawski notes bitterly, Israel no longer knows any moral boundaries -- if it ever did. Those who continue to support Israel, who make excuses for it as it descends into corruption, have lost their moral compass.

Kathleen Christison is a former CIA political analyst and has worked on Middle East issues for 30 years. She is the author of Perceptions of Palestine and The Wound of Dispossession. She can be reached at [email protected].

SOURCE



www.forumninja.com
Lol, Kathleen Chistison publishes regularly in the Journal of Palestine Studies. Very objective.

You want a slanted editorial? I'll give you the other side of this current debacle:

Cry to those using babies


By Naomi Ragen

My son is in the army. He is not the type at all, believe me. Quiet, studious, a writer, a lover of Jewish history, Talmud, ethics. He spent two years in a pre-army program in the Galilee called Karmei Hayil. He made many good friends there from all over the country, and now he and all his friends are in the army.

One of them I know well. A bit chubby, with payot (sidelocks) and a great laugh. He and my son have become like brothers. While both of them tried out for the elite paratroopers unit, only his friend made it in. He and his unit are the ones in Lebanon. They were there over a week, fighting under horrific conditions, running out of food and water. Even though the Israel Air Force dropped tons of leaflets warning civilians to flee because they were in terrorist territory and likely to be injured, they still encountered civilians.

My son spoke to his friend yesterday, and this is how he described it: "The village looked empty, and then we heard noises coming from one of the houses, so we opened fire. But when we went inside, we found two women and a child huddled in the corner of the room. We were so relieved we hadn't hurt them. We took up base in one of the empty houses. And then all of a sudden, we came under intense fire. Three rockets were fired at the house we were in. Only one managed to destroy a wall, which fell on one of us, covering him in white dust, but otherwise not hurting him.

"I spent the whole time feeding bullets to my friend who was shooting nonstop. We managed to kill 26 terrorists. Not one of us was hurt. Our commanding officer kept walking around, touching everybody on the shoulder, smiling and encouraging us: 'We're are better than they are. Don't worry.' It calmed us all down. And really, we were much better than them. They are a lousy army. They only win when they hide behind baby carriages."

Please remember this when you hear about the "atrocity" of the Israeli bomb that killed many civilians in Kafr Qana, a place from which Hezbollah has fired hundreds of rockets at Israel. Unlike previous administrations, Mr. Olmert has my respect when he says: "They were warned to leave. It is the responsibility of Hezbollah for firing rockets amid civilians."

Terrorists and their supporters have lost the right to complain about civilian casualties, since all they have is one goal: this entire war is to target civilians. Every single one of the more than 2,500 rockets launched into Israel, is launched into populated towns filled with women and children. Just today, another explosive belt meant to kill civilians in Israel was detonated harmlessly by our forces in Nablus.

So don't cry to me about civilian casualties. Cry to those using babies and wives and mothers; cry to those who store weapons in mosques, ambulances, hospitals and private homes. Cry to those launching deadly rockets from the backyards of kindergartens and schools. Cry to the heartless men who love death, and however many of their troops or civilians die, consider themselves victorious as long as they can keep on firing rockets at our women and children.

Save your sympathy for the mothers and sisters and girlfriends of our young soldiers who would rather be sitting in study halls learning Torah, but have no choice but to risk their precious lives full of hope, goodness and endless potential, to wipe out the cancerous terrorist cells that threaten their people and all mankind. Make your choice, and save your tears.

That terrorists have been unsuccessful in killing more of our women and children is due to our army, God and prayers, not to any lack of motivation or intention on their part. If you hide behind your baby to shoot at my baby, you are responsible for getting children killed. You and you alone.

The writer is an American-born novelist and playwright who lives in Jerusalem.



Kathleen Chritison is a professional analyst who takes the side of the oppressed people of Palestin because she has seen the real evidence, Naomi Regen is just a lying ****.



www.forumninja.com
You mean like the evidence of Hizbullah shelling northern Israel for years, and no one doing anything about it? Like evidence of thousands of Israeli civilian deaths at the hands of suicide bombers? Like evidence of Hizbullah purposefully using civilian areas as bases of attack?

Nice try.



There have been only a few hundred Israeli deaths against tens of thousands of deaths among their neighbors.

Like you put it, nice try. The Jews get what's coming to them, here's hoping they keep getting it.



Originally Posted by Purandara88
Like you put it, nice try. The Jews get what's coming to them, here's hoping they keep getting it.
Reminds me of pre-WWII talk, when few cared about Hitler and his actions towards the Jews.



Originally Posted by allthatglitters
Reminds me of pre-WWII talk, when few cared about Hitler and his actions towards the Jews.
Yeah, except this time the Jews are the goose stepping fascists.

They reap what they sow.



Originally Posted by KnicksRIP
You mean like the evidence of Hizbullah shelling northern Israel for years, and no one doing anything about it? Like evidence of thousands of Israeli civilian deaths at the hands of suicide bombers? Like evidence of Hizbullah purposefully using civilian areas as bases of attack?

Nice try.
THOUSANDS of Israeli deaths?
Are you a coke addict?
Its less than a few hundred dead israelis and that includes soliders.

Try FIFTY THOUSAND dead palestinians on for size.