Feminism in movies: refreshing or overplayed and extreme?

That's a good point. As for foreign films being able to get away with non-diverse casting, why are foreign films granted more leniency from people on that?

This is a good question, and it's something that's come up in discussions about the Oscars and accusations of xenophobia, compared to awards within specific countries. I think we have to acknowledge some genuine asymmetries in how we talk about this stuff: the places or organizations that acknowledge a problem and/or try to compensate for it, are often bigger targets for criticism when they (inevitably) fail, than places which don't even get to that point.

Obviously, this makes it safer not to try or not to acknowledge problems, which is clearly a perverse incentive structure. The most charitable interpretation I can muster is that it's kind of a "I expect better from X," but that itself can be pretty offensive depending on the specifics, and I think if that is the explanation, it should (at minimum) change the tenor of these critiques a lot more often than it does.

Re: that Oscars thing, a similar discussion happens right around here:

https://www.movieforums.com/communit...01#post2059301

Short version is a similar point is made about country-specific awards and the response is that it's not as troublesome because they're not trying/purporting to encompass other cultures.

Oh okay. What about a movie like Cuties from France? It has non-white actors in, but if it was an all white cast, would it have been as noticed?

I don't know if you're addressing that to me, but I don't think it has anything to do with what I just said.

Oh I was addressing it to the general conversation of why foreign films are given more leniency and if Cuties would have been if the cast was white. It just came to me as I was thinking about it and thought I would ask.

Well, it's not on mine.
Traditional, oppressed female stereotypes do nothing for me.
Gimme a woman who can throw a ****ing spear (physically and metaphorically) any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Yeah, like that Charlize Theron.
Hideous.
Too much testosterone.

It is what it is.
Some men cannot handle female equality. They just can't. Just like we have recently seen that most of this country can't handle the idea of racial equality. They're fine not being overtly racist until the idea of actual equality is on the table and then suddenly everything is a crisis. BLM is destroying this country and all that hand-wringing over the idea that White Supremacy (not racism, per se, White Supremacy) might actually come down. The same is true of gender equality.
We have nowhere near reached gender equality in film. Not even ****ing close. Yet we have men everywhere freaking out that "feminism" (which is now just women being treated like humans with their own agency and being allowed some of the same opportunities as men) is somehow being crammed down their throats. What a ****ing joke.

Also, a bunch of dudes parsing what is and isn't "feminine" and what women are and aren't and can and can't be is pretty hilarious. But also just tired.

I find men and women, (obviously), to be different. Sadly, I think in attempt to make women "stronger" they've made them "stronger" in the sense of being more masculine whereby there are many virtuous strengths in being feminine. One of them is that women have an uncanny ability to be brilliant. I think a class-example of this notion was played out in the 1960's film Wait Until Dark, whereby Audrey Hepburn's character, (a meek and mild blind woman), out-smarts and uses her available resources to take care of a situation where a group of three abled-bodied and dangerous men wish to kill her. That to me is feminine strength and it's entirely believable. Honestly, one of the reasons I "tune out" of today's film and television is because women don't act like women, (or at least no women I know of anyway), and the men portrayed are bubbling fools or "Dudes in Distress"-type characters. (Which even the reverse-"Damsel" never rang true for me either.) We've become so caught up in "Making Women Strong/Having Stronger Roles" that we bypassed what makes them so strong to begin with, and I'm frankly so over it. (And this is coming from someone who proclaims himself to be a feminist.)

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Imagine an eye unruled by man-made laws of perspective, an eye unprejudiced by compositional logic, an eye which does not respond to the name of everything but which must know each object encountered in life through an adventure of perception. How many colors are there in a field of grass to the crawling baby unaware of 'Green'?

-Stan Brakhage

Reminder to try to keep the temperature down on this topic and try to keep the orbit of the discussion around the cinematic. That may involve briefly branching out into related topics to make a point, but let's try to quickly return to the movie side, lest this become a purely political discussion.

Qualities that are traditionally thought of as being "masculine" and qualities that are traditionally thought of as being "feminine" exits in people of all genders.

When you say that women in movies don't "act like women", you're actually saying "women in movies don't act the way I think women act."

I will never forget the night there was a shooting outside my house, I watched the gunman run past my window, I told my mother that someone had been shooting and she unhesitatingly ran outside and when I tried to get her to stay inside she said that no way was she going to let someone die alone on our street if they'd been shot.

Is this a feminine response? A masculine response?

So to bring it back to movies, my general point of view on characters in action films (and we are, like, 90% talking about action films here) is that very few of them behave like "real" men OR "real" women. I don't imagine that most (or really any) men could win a fight against a group of 9 bad guys, so it doesn't ruffle my feathers all that much when a woman does it on screen. If Keanu Reeves taking out a room full of people doesn't trigger your alarms but Charlize Theron doing the same does, hmm.

It's undeniable that Hollywood, in a mostly cynical bid for wider audiences, doesn't hesitate to take well-worn action molds and just swap female characters into what would have normally been male roles. But also, who cares? These films still make up a relative minority of action films or films in general.

I would, as always, love a list of 5-10 films (from the same year) that feature a strong female character as the action lead and align with your claim of male characters being reduced to "dudes in distress".

I hope briefly branching out to make a point is all I did there. I certainly don't want to turn this forum political, especially as a newcomer, but the topic is socio-political so it would seem nearly impossible to discuss without being socio-political in ones' comments.
I think the tenor of this discussion, from what I've seen so far, is pretty disappointing.
And to keep it cinematic, it seems like the overriding theme here is "women can be in movies as long as they're the way I, a man, want to see women in movies and when they're not, it's feminism being crammed in and ruining the art".
I disagree, obviously.

I think you're overanalyzing my statement and putting words and ideas in my tongue... but sure. You win. Debate over, I'm off this thread and onto less "hot button" issues.

Yeah, we try to have leeway with this rule because, as you say, films are about these things. The rule is also quite new, so there's some latitude for now even with longtime members, nevermind new ones.

I'm essentially engaging in a "reminder tour" for a month or two just so we can all figure out where the (admittedly fuzzy) line needs to be for conversations to stay productive, so I hope everyone'll bear with me and make a good faith effort on that front. Which also involves deescalating the sharper conflicts, even if (especially if?) you don't feel the other person deserves a softer response.

Meanwhile, I tuned out of 2001: A Space Odyssey because none of the computers I've used in real life are high-powered AIs that are capable of singing "Daisy".

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Exactly. Like there's "women's intuition"...which you mentioned Aubrey Hepburn's character had. A quality of strength doesn't have to indicate physical strength. A woman can be strong without wearing timberland boots and swearing like a sailor.




You're right, but "taking out a room full of people" is violence, which is unfortunately associated with men. Men start and fight wars, hit each other on the playground, brawl at bars, are involved in more gun shootings, etc. Why would a woman want to fight a bunch of guys?. Instead, nature dictates that she should want to f--k them. A woman should use her feminine strengths to get out of things, like flattery and offering sexual favors

I don't give it any thought, unless it becomes a bit too obvious. Strong independent female characters have been around for almost as long as movies have been around. Ma Kettle was obviously the head of the house, as was Alice Kramden. GI Jane took things pretty close to the edge, but it was still an enjoyable movie.

Let's just say that if they ever cast Beyonce in a role that involves storming the beaches of Normandy during D-day, that's when you know that the inmates have taken over the asylum.

Very good point. Ever see a Bette Davis movie? She ain't taking crap from anyone.

I would pay good money to see this film and anyone who says otherwise is a liar.