Donald Trump for President?

Just a question: how can a country that was literally built by immigrants be against immigration??? Unless you're a native American you have the same right to be there than anyone else...

And those patriotic ideas, led guys like Hitler to power... I can't possibly imagine someone voting for Trump unless they're stupid or just don't care. And I don't which is worse... Europe had a similar problem with LePen in France... What's this thing about wanting to be great again?

Okay, I don't want to be the one to defend Trump again because I abhor how he is campaigning and his ideals. We do have to be honest about what he is putting forth though, otherwise we just become part of the rhetoric. He is not against immigration, he is against illegal immigration. Now, how he proposes to stop that and how he feels about illegals that are here is beyond ignorant and I am more than willing to discuss that, although there is not much more to discuss. I don't know if there is a country in the world that doesn't have some kind of immigration laws, is there? Let's not mischaracterize someone who has said so many crazy things that there is plenty of ammunition to attack him with.

__________________
Letterboxd

Neiba, immigration is: legal entry into the country. All the immigrants who came and built America did so by legal means. There are millions of legally immigrated Mexicans in the USA. Once they have become a citizen, I consider them an American.

But crossing the border illegally in the middle of the night is a totally different thing.

Do you know what we do with illegal Mexican immigrants? We give them drivers licenses, medical treatment in hospitals and other benefits.

Do you know what would happen to me if I illegally crossed over the border into Mexico and was caught? I would be thrown into a Mexican jail and treated harshly.

And that's something that bugs me, the USA treats illegal immigrants like people and yet Mexico criticizes us while at the same time their Mexican immigration laws are much harsher than ours.

On this issue I don't understand how so many people can be so mixed up. The "left" acts like if you want illegal trespass stopped and controlled, then you hate all immigration and all immigrants. Nothing is further from the truth.

I have to wonder how many of these open border folks have taken the personal step of removing their locks from their doors? Because the difference between legal and illegal immigration is; the first is like a guest you invite into your home, the second is like someone you find in your home in the middle of the night who has broken in. The first you sit down to dinner with, the second you call the cops on and prepare to defend your family against.

I don't understand this comparison because a home is something that you've earned, something that you've worked hard for, bought with money that you've worked for. And that's not to mention that if a person turned up in your house they've likely got negative intentions.

Where as your country is not your country through anything that you've earned, you're born there, you have no choice where you're born. Okay maybe you're parents, family etc. worked hard and earned there place before you were born, but the opportunity only came in the first place because they had the chance to through the luck of being born there.

So do you think all countries should have 100% open border policies, everyone comes and goes as they please with no restrictions whatsoever?

Your arguments with the analogy are valid. Still, on several levels, the analogy is apt.
It is simply an issue of trespassing vs. being granted permission to enter an area.

A country belongs to its citizens. The control of its borders should be up to its government (which should be representative of its citizens). A country's borders do not belong to invaders or trespassers or anyone outside those borders no matter what their intent. If the intent is good, then systems should be in place for those wishing to enter to ask permission and do whatever is necessary to obtain that permission.

Every country (just like every home) has a right to secure its exterior entrance ways.

Just like if I want to go into someone's home - if I go in to it by any other way than being granted permission, then I am a trespasser and trespassing is a crime even if my intention is just to seek shelter or take something to eat.

To be honest you don't have good relations with big part of the world. Maybe Mexico really wanted to keep California

__________________
“By definition, you have to live until you die. Better to make that life as complete and enjoyable an experience as possible, in case death is shite, which I suspect it will be.”

My ideas on the subject are nothing new to long-time MoFos. I look at this as a totally different subject than most people talk about. The Mexicans were in my state (California) and most of the southwestern states before they ever were part of the U.S. Their families migrated back and forth across the "border" before and after there was a border. They did this so they could support their families. When I taught in Santa Ana, almost every one of my students made trips to Mexico every year to see the other part of their family who lived the majority of their time there. I know this has nothing to do with "illegal" immigration as so many are concerned about and what certain people think it means - crime, increased taxes, hand-outs, etc. But our border is a complex, historical thing and should be considered as such. I realize that the increase in drugs and crime south of the border needs to be addressed, but so do the lives of families who have called this land their own for several centuries even though it's now known as the United States.

__________________
It's what you learn after you know it all that counts. - John Wooden
My IMDb page

All these problems that no one can agree on are the work of Native American ghosts

The entire U.S. is built on an Indian burial ground like the Overlook Hotel in The Shining

It's like a Sexy Curse x1000

I've heard this type of reasoning before and to be honest, it makes no sense to me.

So if Native American tribes had written laws against immigration, then it wouldn't have been alright? That is some of the thinnest reasoning I've ever heard.

It's one thing to say, alright fine, in the past the US has gotten away with actual evil when it comes to immigration issues (Genocide of original inhabitants, forced immigration of slave labor, horrible mistreatment of even the voluntary immigrants) but now we've taken a good hard look at immigration and today x, y and z are the best policies. But let's not pretend for a second that somehow we have a lineage of fair immigration policies that stretch back to the founding of the country that we are upholding.

You also can't keep using the excuse that because of the sins and lack of enlightenment of some in the past, we cannot establish, maintain and uphold laws now. That kind of thinking also makes no sense.

But these laws, controls are put in to place by the people who had the opportunity to be able to get to a position to be a "citizen" in the first place. There should be more efforts put in place to reduce the number of illegal immigrants, not by deporting them or banning them, but my supporting them. Increase education and support to them, provide more safer options, try and deal with the root of the problem and understand why people are resorting to illegal ways of getting in to the country.

Pretty much, yes. But it should be in conjunction with other policies that look to provide education and support not only to current citizens but those in need outside of your country, create a system that works on cooperation and not division.

I agree with this whole heartedly and I think they are very serious conversations to have, and ones that Trump himself is unwilling to have. Still much different than saying everyone in or everyone out though and I don't see anyone saying that.

I have no problem with that. Trouble is - while someone's trying to figure out the "root of the problem" and how to address it, millions of people are continuing to enter illegally.

So, it's fine to try to find ways to address the root of the problem, but you also have to simultaneously stop the flow of illegal trespass.

I think there should be expedited paths to citizenship - programs that are win / win.

For instance, a military service program. It could include boot camp wherein English is taught. And say, after a 4 year stint, citizenship would be granted upon discharge.

I think this is the problem with immigration. Countries have built up recently based on the people inside them, cultures have naturally been developed, but on the flip side in some cases the division with other countries has grown. I think it's a difficult one, whilst it's nice for me to say I would open all borders, I know that realistically this is not very viable. But I also don't think some of what people believe are sensible solutions are that viable either. People are talking about short term solutions to long term problems, "get them all out first, then sort out the problem" but surely that creates problems in itself, or increases the current problems.

It absolutely increases the problem, you're spot on. That is one of the first things Trump said that drove me crazy and he hasn't stopped since. Still not fair to characterize him as someone who is against legal immigration though.

I have no clue what the political environment is like over there but here this is the kind of talk is what has made us so divided as a nation. Republicans want to keep everyone out of our country while Democrats want to let everyone in with no checks and balances. Republicans want everyone to have tanks in the garage while Democrats want to take away our hunting rifles. It's absolutely insane the way we view each other. The truth is most of us are much closer together on these issues than people realize. We are too busy screaming at each other to have real conversations.

True. Trying to suddenly deport 10's of millions of people is not very feasible.

But you could start in an area that's already fairly sorted out, where you don't have to try to search for illegal aliens - like the prison system. Our jails are overflowing and 37 % of the American prison population consists of illegal aliens! That's almost half! These are people who came here illegally, then committed crimes. Yet we're paying to feed, shelter, provide medical care & sustain them.
Prisons are an ideal place to start and a good way to de-crowd the prison system and improve conditions for staff & inmates. Clean out the prisons and deport the illegal aliens who came here to commit crimes back to their own countries and let their countries pay to support them.

That's one of the main things that puzzles me about America. As you say there is no way that every "proud rifle owner" just so happens to agree with absolutely everything the Republican party stands for if they vote for them, and there's no way that every gay person happens to agree with everything that the democrat party stands for if they vote for them. Replace those two people with whatever labels you want, you get the point of what I'm saying, just the fact you can label/stereotype people in to what you'd expect them to vote for based on a couple of minor details about them, shows the problem. I was talking to Cobpyth the other day about the lack of options really with both sides being so opposed to each other. What happens if you have liberal beliefs but you also believe in conservative financial policy. Whilst I believe that if a candidate gets voted in, the choice of those who voted for them should be respected, and you'd expect them to carry through on those policies, it's just weird to me how the candidates are all identical. Clinton and Sanders policies are pretty much the same, and I was looking at the Republican candidates and they're very similar too. I think Trump is a slight exception because what we have on him are mainly ideas rather than plans, and people also despise his personal attacks on people, be it the disabled, women etc.

Whilst it's similar in the UK at the moment, I think, with the conservatives versus Corbyn's now very left wing Labour party, he was voted in by Labour party members who had three other options that all seemed pretty unique to me. Then I'd say a party like UKIP has a mismatch of elements that are left/right wing, even if not everyone is aware of this.