Star Wars: Episode VIII – The Last Jedi

Yes, those are the scores NOW. Comparing movies that have had time to be scored correctly with a movie that's two days old is very skewed, I hope you know that.

Now it's my turn to scream and spoil. Yes scream, there's no way I'm calm with this.



The acting is actually good, they especially use the talent of Adam Driver more than in TFA. Leia is also better than in TFA, except that cringe worthy space walk. But a story is always the most essential thing, and here the story failed. I don't know if the writer has ever written a real story in his/her life (please don't make me look up their name either).

I notice Kylo pleaded with the audience several times

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Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien.
Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!

as i said last scene tells everything abt what disney want

The Emperor who wasn't referenced at all in IV, made one brief appearance in V, and only took on a significant role in VI? I didn't think there was that much emphasis on the "mystery" of the Emperor as the conflict was still very much between Luke and Vader for the most part - even then, what more do you need to know other than that he's an evil overlord? The same applies to Snoke - what exactly makes him interesting in his own right beyond his connection to Kylo? Expecting him to remain the Big Bad would've been boring.

That's quite simply a bad and counter-productive line of reasoning - if you would just dismiss any positive defence out of hand because you refuse to accept it no matter how well it was argued, then why should anyone try to discuss anything with you? I guess this explains why you didn't acknowledge my first response to you, anyway.

They don't sound that willing.

I suppose time will tell in regards to the box office performance, but how much difference is that "entire generation" going to make? It reminds me of those fringe groups who tried to boycott TFA and Rogue One because none of the heroes were white guys even though the resulting difference was a few million dollars that seemed very insignificant against billion-dollar grosses.

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I don't think its very similar personally, for one thing the critical environment is vastly different today, far more fawning of major releases like this where as in 1980 the very idea of an action blockbuster and what it might entail was very new.

In terms of audience expectations as well in large part because of Empire fans as most definitely willing to deal with shocking twists and something other than the classical feel-good heroes jouney of the original, just look at the reaction to Rogue One last year for example, a film that almost includes internal politics and disagreement within the ranks of the "good guys".

The problem for me is that this film tries to up the stakes in terms of throwing out multiple shocking twists and bits of deconstruction and by en large does them very poorly.

Look back to the originals and the deconstruction of Luke's gungho heroism happens across Empire. We start with out some nods to his fallibility needing to be saved by Han on Hoth and the deaths around him such as Dak. Then on Degobah we have his dreams of impatient heroism slowly picked apart by Yoda across many scenes before we get the terrible choice offered to him, Its a choice that tests the character with Yoda and Ben telling him to potentially let his friends die for the cause. Its a choice of real depth and Luke's decision is still treated in a very sympathetic fashion as his his character as a whole even as the film sets up his failure.

Equally consider Obi Wan in the Luke like position. The films manage to keep him as a mentor carrying moral wisdom AND still give us a shocking revelation of his failure with Vader. Luke in this film ends up being stripped of most of his wisdom and purpose, merely hiding out of guilt/failiure to the degree the revelation with Kylo isn't even that shocking by the time it happens.

The film takes the gungho heroism deconstruction and tries to apply it to the Poe/Finn story but to me makes a mess of it. Most importantly it never really takes the time to focus on Poe as a character the way ESB does with Luke and Yoda which gives it very little of substance to work with. The actual plotting as well though seems incredibly messy and confused, far too much going on and most of it irrelevant and often illogical, Unlike the deep reasoned question Luke is asked by his situation in ESB Poe is presented with a situation where his actions seem the only response because of Derns characters illogical secrecy even in the face of mutiny. That these actions involve a load of tech manbo jambo(something the originals always tried to avoid) and plot points rather than a simple action makes this worse and drags it out vastly longer than is needed.

ESB to me is a superbly written blockbuster that focuses closely on its lead characters with a clear focus on their stories. TLJ by comparison comes across as a rushed mess, not without its merits definitely as the Kylo story is certainly interesting and more ambitious than anything in TFA but still a film that would have benefited from a lot of work on the script cutting out needless plotting fat and focusing more on character.

The ironic thing is that after all the negative talk of reshoots(much of which we actually intended) on Rogue One to me that film feels FAR more polished than either TFA or TLJ. I wouldn't be surprised if that was partly down to the process, basically honing in on the meat of the story as it was reworked and removing material that didn't further it.

That's nearly 100,000 reviews on RT to get that score. Not much room to get better.

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I don't get the waves of negativity that's been plaguing the internet right now. This is certainly not the worst Star Wars film. Nor is it a misstep that will make everything else after it complete garbage. But it is disappointing on many, many aspects. Honestly, I don't know what to think. Should I praise it for being... unique? Even though there are more questions raised than asked? Or should I just be content that I was entertained for 2 hours?

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I'm trying to coordinate a huge family viewing of this for a Christmas gift but how in the heck do I find out who's seen it, order not to see it, and know when everyone can see it ast the same time? I have money burning a hole for a group ticket purchase.

I think you should get everyone drunk, take them all at the same time, and hope for a giant punch up, Joel. It is xmas after all. Then kiss and make up, and have a rewatch. Sounds like your #1 xmas movie!

I like to read calm and well reasoning posts like this.
I also like the review of Cynema De Bergerac, though there are certain points I'm not agree with.
Let's not call ourselves "whining fanboys" or "haters".
I need to find time to type an eloquent reply (points taken and points not agreed etc.) because my head is still spinning after a midnight viewing and 2h of night bus to come home.

Luke's hero arc from Return of the Jedi is ruined by Last Jedi. That in and of itself SUCKS. I really liked other aspects of Last Jedi but them crapping all over the character of Luke Skywalker is almost unforgivable. Just bad writing...

They knew Dumbledore had to have his epic moment in Harry Potter
Lucas knew Yoda had to have his (or 2) in the Prequels
Jackson gave Gandalf plenty in LOTR

Rian Johnston and Kathleen Kennedy/Disney don't seem to know it for this trilogy though.

Ok sure Emperor wasn't mentioned in 4, I had forgotten. Snoke was interesting and powerful, and now he has gone with absolutely nothing about his own backstory or how he came to lead the FO. He was an obvious candidate for a Luke showdown in this or next. Now the FO is a joke, emotional whiney brat Kylo and pantomime General Hux. At least the scenes in the OT with the Empire were basically all serious without lame attempts at humour every minute.


Easier to attack someone's debate style rather than defend the indefensible I guess.

Why doesn't Hux send a couple of ships or another fleet to jump ahead of the Rebels?
Why those silly bombers that have to be over target in zero G?
Why does purple hair Admiral hide her intentions from Poe?
Why does purple hair Admiral wait for loads of ships to be destroyed before pulling off her Hyperspace suicide attack?
Why do the large numbers of fighters that can attack the fleet have to be pulled back again?
Why did we need this entire segment or the weak casino town subplot AT ALL this film?





Quite a huge difference. Star Wars is like a Religion for millions of devoted fans and their faces have just been spat in.

Force Awakens made $2 Billion. How much will this make?$1Billion? Less? they can forget about those repeat viewings from the legions of pissed off fans, and the word of mouth and bad reviews will prevent lots of casuals from bothering as well.

What fringe groups boycotted prev 2 due to diversity complaints?

Been looking through this thread. Don't think there's any need for hostility on either side. It had its good and its bad.

Let's be honest, at this point, Star Wars is too big to please everyone everytime. Everyone has their own reason for liking it and not all of them can be satisfied.

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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?

its not about liking it or not, for me force awakens felt stronger than this

I think the point is that contradiction isn't a "debate style."

Probably because light speed uses a disproportionate amount of fuel, whereas they know they're in a position to wait them out otherwise.

Off the top of my head, how about because the fighters could just shoot them all if they actually had to launch themselves from a distance?

Regarding these last two questions: important to make a distinction in films (particularly sci-fi films) between "this doesn't make sense" and "this is not explicitly explained to us." It's not difficult to come up with all sorts of possible explanations for this kinda stuff, even though it would be absurd and boring to have it all enumerated in the film itself. These kinds of complaints are usually the result of not liking a film, rather than the cause of it.

You mean other than the fact that he's crazily impulsive and disobeyed a direct order earlier in the film?

That's the last decently sized ship they have. They're basically stuck wherever they land otherwise. I would think blowing it up in a suicide attack would be a last resort.

I don't know what this is referring to.

This doesn't sound like a real question. You don't "need" any conflict in the film; bad things happen arbitrarily in all action films to provide obstacles that provide excuses for adventure.

I think this is a pretty apt comparison, actually. The, eh, energetic response we're seeing makes perfect sense if you think of these movies as a "religion," because trying something new with them is essentially equivalent to scribbling margin notes in the Bible. For those of us who just think it's a great series of movies, there's no automatic repulsion (and, indeed, a feeling of refreshment) when someone comes along and tries to do something different with them.

I don't see how this is relevant to anything, and I tend to think citing audience scores and box office numbers for some kind of moral support isn't something someone should have to do if they have a sound argument about the film itself.

Of course they were being economical, how silly of me. Or maybe the whole idea of starships having "fuel" that we've never seen before is a bad idea.


Again maybe the bombers that behave like WW2 bombers are a terrible idea, slow moving easy targets packed with high explosive. I mean it's LOLbad.


Disobeying an order because he doesn't know the plan, and she has absolutely no reason not to tell him. Badly written just to give Po a reason to set the sidequest up.


She is dead anyway, but waits till all the ships other than those with main cast in are left before her suicide bid, yeah right.


When Hux pulls back the fighters cause they are too far away from main fleet or some such.


Bad things are fine in films, of course as you say to act as a spark for adventure, just bad things that make some sort of basic logical sense would be nice.


Someone comes along and totally ruins them you mean. Rian Johnston threw out the window just about everything that was set up in VII.

-Anakins lightsaber being a sort of character on it's own with Rey having a vision after touching it, then the lightsaber appears to jump to Rey's hand instead of Kylo. So what happens in TLJ, Luke literally throws it over his shoulder, into the sea for all he cares then later it is ripped in half.
-Snoke, no info no Kylo receiving training that he was supposed to finish, dispensed pathetically after quite an impressive display of power.
-A whole movie to find Luke, they find him, nope he's just a depressed old hobo, doesn't even train Rey, cool display of power then fades away.
- The Knights of Ren?? where are they? Just totally absent without reason, a quick backstory about how they were Luke's pupils.
-Rey's family, that look on Luke's face of empathy at the end of VII, nope she is a nobody.
-Kylo's mask, smashed to pieces, like all JJ's ideas.

Those defending the film are taking the "bold new direction" defense, yeah it's a new direction all right, a very bad one.

Is there any better indicator for a "blockbuster" if you like than actual $$ performance or user ratings in the hundreds of thousands providing an overall score.

Is this another example of "debate style"? Because it kinda just seems like sarcasm in lieu of an actual response.

Why do you think it's bad? Be specific. Follow through on the sarcasm if you want to actually argue about this.

I think it's a great idea, since logistical things like that are a huge part of actual military strategy, and most of these space battles are rote, chaotic, and interchangeable without introducing things like this.

Huh? You were suggesting that it didn't make sense. I've given you a perfectly good reason for it, and now you're just saying it's "terrible" and "bad" without any explanation.

Of course she does. Military leaders don't generally share high-level strategy with subordinates at all, let alone anything with an element of deception, let alone with people who disobey orders.

Nope. It's done to advance his arc; it directly leads to Leia explaining the difference between looking like a hero and actually being one. This is advanced a few other times throughout the film, and it's clearly setting up a resolution in the third film where he becomes one of the leaders of the Resistance, having learned from people like Dern's character along the way.

Again, "yeah right" is not a response.

Please stop pretending you want to have a serious discussion if this is the kind of stuff you're going to come back with.

Normally I'd just let this go, but I'd really like to make an example out of it: what does this sentence accomplish? It doesn't make an argument. It's not meant to be clever or funny. It's just you saying "I don't like it!" again. What's the point of that? Because stuff like this really makes it seem (particularly grouped with all the stuff above) that you have zero interest in having a conversation about this.

We're talking about whether the film is good and/or makes sense, not whether or not it fit some arbitrary definition of "blockbuster." Are you actually arguing that point, or is this just venting, which is why telling me other people agree with you somehow feels relevant?

i have to say after watching the movie, i like some of the ideas implemented, and i hate other ideas:
the plot twists were good and it made for a good story
i didn't like how kylo just doesn't get any training or 1 on 1 with his mentor snoke, he should have had more dark side extravaganza before we see him meet up with rey, anyway it was snoke's idea to bind them, thats ok, it just didn't give me the wow effect i wanted, i felt the force awakens had that wow effects, especially with the han solo- kylo ren scene.
i just don;t agree with what disney has for us in later movies, they just want kids to be recruited as jedi's , ok i understand the need for new blood, but not killing the characters that made the star wars saga so important and vibrant, maybe its me who just got used to see Darth vader in every star wars film, wish we had darth vader here, at least like that scene in force awakens where we see his mask and the music comes in superb scene that was.

The idea of starship fuel was a plot device for the slow chase nothing more. It's something we've never heard of before and I wouldn't be surprised if we never see the like again. Being that Star Wars takes place in a used galaxy, you would expect that there had been some sort of renewable tech employed to power a star ship, a warp core for example. Sure ships can have faults but suddenly we're running out of fuel. It's not a part of Star Wars and it felt off.


You want me to explain why in a fast moving fleet battle/dogfight having really slow moving, large, explosive filled ships that have to wait until they are directly over their target are a terrible idea, poorly thought through? You previously talked about logistics and tactics.

OK Yoda, they will be picked off easily by the enemy, turrets or fighters and will likely cause there own side more harm, not to mention senseless deaths of crew.




I don't think that's true. So the Admiral is just going to let them all believe there's no hope and risk mutiny which is exactly what happens. It's nonsensical.


I can get on board what they are trying to do here, just not they way they've gone about it. Clumsy.

It's relevant that this film is largely despised amongst Star Wars fans. I would say yes every post I've made in this thread has been at least part vent, I love SW and am outraged at what's happened.