How many masterpieces are there?

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I just reread this thread, no one 'baited you' into saying what you think a masterpiece is. I also didn't see anyone directly telling you that your opinion was wrong. People only posted what their own definitions of a masterpiece were as per your post here:
Different interpretations.
Not a big deal.



Yes in fairness, I think I do agree that it's mostly about craft.
I'm not sure that it can be that alone though.
India Song is great craft and also extremely innovative (even if heavily inspired by Last Year At Marienbad imo), but to me it just isn't good enough of a viewing experience to call it a masterpiece.
Kings of the Road is visually incredible for 1975, but whilst being a decent movie, for me it isn't strong enough to be considered a masterpiece.

Saying that, conversely I think The Leopard is a rubbish movie, but I also think it's probably the most skilfully and effectively piece of visual moviecraft, the most visually beautiful movie, and I would find it difficult to discount it as a masterpiece on that basis.
Perhaps the Leopard is the exception which proves the rule.
Well, I'm not a Vulcan, emotion is an important part of the movie going experience, but how you ply that through script, and acting, or even in creating atmosphere, I consider craft as well.

The dictionary describes it as a work of outstanding artistry, skill, or workmanship. Artistry is a key word there, and how I try to approach a movie that could be considered in the realm of "masterpiece" -that is shooting for something transcendent as a piece of art- Is to come at it first, like a grown man - not just say, "Here I am now, entertain me", but realize that it might be a challenge to me, intellectually, emotionally; the subject matter might be uncomfortable, it might test my patience, but that's okay, watch like an adult, reflect, think, but also soak in the qualities that go into making a great art, great. While I enjoy film as a bit of candy, just for the fun of it, I don't want to completely infantilize myself as a viewer; and if you use words like sublime, elevated.... masterpiece, you're going somewhere significant, so approach it like that.

I don't always succeed, and it can sometimes feel like cinematic vegetables. India Song wasn't happy fun time populist entertainment, sure. On the other hand, that doesn't mean a masterpiece has to be stuffy or a struggle to watch, Dreyer for example, felt his movies were accessible to the masses, and not just artsy farsty pieces for film snobs (Out of the Past, for another, is a film noir masterpiece) - but the artistic qualities should be considered as a criterion for what a masterpiece is and what it isn't. Otherwise, you're not talking about a list of masterpieces, but 'personal favorites'.
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I also wonder whether there might be genre masterpieces, and then a level above that overall masterpieces?

Say something like The Terminator. I'd personally probably say it was a sci-fi masterpiece, but I wouldn't consider it an outright masterpiece?



Yeah, I feel a lot of what you're saying.

And I definitely accept that personal favourite and masterpiece isn't the same thing (although there might be a lot of overlap).

I also was of the view that craft just isn't about visual artistry, but about how a movie is pieced together, including the pace, the way the narrative is unravalled, and also as you say the acting and the script etc.

Regarding a masterpiece being uncomfortable or stuffy to watch, on the contrary I would think a masterpiece would be likely to be a delight and joy to watch.

Shame you didn't like The Runner btw.



Oh, I liked the Runner, I wasn't as high on it as some, but I liked it. That moment where he's chasing the guy who stole his ice always sticks with me.
WARNING: "" spoilers below
He just runs and run and runs, never stops, reaches his goal, walks all the way back as the ice melts and disappears, there so many layers in that - the futility (what did you gain, all that effort for something you can't keep) but also, it's just the principle of the thing, life hasn't given me much, but I'll be damned if I'm going to let it trample on me if I can help it. You link that to the ending, and wow.



I don't actually wear pants.
Well, I'm not a Vulcan, emotion is an important part of the movie going experience, but how you ply that through script, and acting, or even in creating atmosphere, I consider craft as well.

The dictionary describes it as a work of outstanding artistry, skill, or workmanship. Artistry is a key word there, and how I try to approach a movie that could be considered in the realm of "masterpiece" -that is shooting for something transcendent as a piece of art- Is to come at it first, like a grown man - not just say, "Here I am now, entertain me", but realize that it might be a challenge to me, intellectually, emotionally; the subject matter might be uncomfortable, it might test my patience, but that's okay, watch like an adult, reflect, think, but also soak in the qualities that go into making a great art, great. While I enjoy film as a bit of candy, just for the fun of it, I don't want to completely infantilize myself as a viewer; and if you use words like sublime, elevated.... masterpiece, you're going somewhere significant, so approach it like that.

I don't always succeed, and it can sometimes feel like cinematic vegetables. India Song wasn't happy fun time populist entertainment, sure. On the other hand, that doesn't mean a masterpiece has to be stuffy or a struggle to watch, Dreyer for example, felt his movies were accessible to the masses, and not just artsy farsty pieces for film snobs (Out of the Past, for another, is a film noir masterpiece) - but the artistic qualities should be considered as a criterion for what a masterpiece is and what it isn't. Otherwise, you're not talking about a list of masterpieces, but 'personal favorites'.
What I've seen and experienced is that sometimes a film can be a "masterpiece" of a certain genre or style without being a "personal favorite", and vice versa. I also rank some films as "personal favorites" because they are "masterpieces", except I don't think it can be a "masterpiece" just because it's a "personal favorite". I guess it depends on how you interpret such things.

My favorite film noir is Akira Kurosawa's Stray Dog. I love the craftsmanship, the skill, the artistry, and just how well it's made. For me it's the pinnacle noir. Whether it's widely considered a "masterpiece" I don't know. I don't even know if I consider it one. I am just always captivated by it and fight it exciting.

Hm... Here's my list of masterpieces, off the top of my head, and in no specific order:
Schindler's List
Kurosawa's Ran
Human Condition Trilogy
Parasite
Memories of Murder

That's about it, honestly. My list of favorites is about 50 movies long, and this is seven of them. Dunno...
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I'm up/down to my nr19 in my rereview of my top 100.
Am tempted to push on through the night but will probably leave it at that and finish it tomorrow (hopefully).

I so far have 33 marked as masterpieces, and I think about 84 marked as unsure.



Trouble with a capital "T"
I am SUCH a sucker for black and white.
Like I think almost every black and white film made this century I have down as a masterpiece.
I love black and white films, they strip out distracting reality and focus on the drama at hand. I watch a lot of b&w films.



This is what I have for masterpieces pre 1950:

Birth of a Nation 1915 USA DW Griffith
J'Accuse 1919 France Abel Gance
West Down East 1920 USA DW Griffith
The Phantom Carriage 1921 Sweden Victor Sjöström
The Great White Silence 1924 UK (documentary) Herbert Ponting
The Adventures of Prince Achmed 1926 Germany Lotte Reinger
The General 1926 USA Buster Keaton
The Lodger 1927 UK Alfred Hitchcock
Metropolis 1927 Germany Fritz Lang
Sunrise: A Song of Two Humans 1927 USA F.W. Murnau
Napoleon 1927 France Fritz Lang Abel Gance
The Passion of Joan of Arc 1928 France Carl Theodor Dreyer
Blackmail 1929 UK Alfred Hitchcock
Pandora's Box 1929 Germany G.W. Pabst
Man With a Movie Camera 1929 USSR (documentary) Dziga Vertov
Salt for Svanetia 1930 USSR Mikhael Kalatazov
M 1931 Germany Fritz Lang
Limite 1931 Brazil Mário Peixoto
Vampyr 1932 Germany Carl Theodor Dreyer
Scarface 1932 USA Howard Hawks
A Night at the Opera 1935 USA Sam Wood
Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs 1936 USA
The Adventures of Robin Hood 1938 USA Michael Curtiz
The Wizard of Oz 1939 USA Victor Fleming
Gone With the Wind 1939 USA Victor Fleming
Citizen Kane 1941 USA Orson Welles
Ornamental Hairpin 1941 Japan Hiroshi Shimizu
Day of Wrath 1943 Denmark Carl Theodor Dreyer
Meshes of the Afternoon 1943 USA Maya Deren
Sanshiro Sugata 1943 Japan Akira Kurosawa
Rome, Open City 1945 Italy Roberto Rossellini
La Belle et La Bete 1946 France Jean Cocteau
Panique 1946 France Julien Duvivier
Out of the Past 1947 USA Jacques Tourneur
Bicycle Thieves 1948 Italy Vittorio De Sica
Late Spring 1949 Japan Yasujiro Ozu
The Third Man 1949 UK Carol Red
Stray Dog 1949 Japan Akira Kurosawa


And then the following possibles:
NO The Thief of Bagdad 1924 USA
NO Port of Shadows 1938 France Marcel Carné
NO Casablanca 1942 USA Michael Curtiz
NO Laura 1944 USA Otto Preminger
NO Brief Encounter 1945 UK David Lean

I haven't watched all of Metropolis, but have included it.



My list for the 50s and 60s:

Rear Window 1954 USA Alfred Hitchcock
Journey to Italy 1954 Italy Roberto Rossellini
On the Waterfront 1954 USA Elia Kazan
Pather Panchali 1955 India Satyijat Ray
La Pointe Courte 1955 France Agnès Varda
The Silent World 1956 France Louis Malle and Jacques Cousteau (documentary)
Bob Le Flambeur 1956 France Jean-Pierre Melville
Bridge On The River Kwai 1957 UK David Lean
12 Angry Men 1957 USA Sydney Lumet
The Music Room 1958 India Satyajit Ray
Touch of Evil 1958 USA Orson Welles
Elevator to the Gallows 1958 France Louis Malle
Anatomy of a Murder 1959 USA Otto Preminger
North by Northwest 1959 USA Alfred Hitchcock
The Naked Island 1960 Japan Kaneto Shindô
Psycho 1960 USA Alfred Hitchcock
Lola 1961 France Jacques Demy
Last Year at Marienbad 1961 France Alain Resnais
La Notte 1961 Italy Michaelangelo Antonioni
La Jetee 1962 France
Lawrence of Arabia 1962 UK David Lean
L'Eclisse 1962 Italy Michelangelo Antonioni
High and Low 1963 Japan Akira Kurosawa
The Leopard 1963 Italy Luciano Visconti
Onibaba 1964 Japan Kaneto Shindô
Soy Cuba 1964 USSR Mikhail Kalatozov
The Umbrellas of Cherbourg 1964 France Jacques Demy
Alphaville 1965 France Jean-Luc Godard
Le Bonheur 1965 France Agnès Varda
For a Few Dollars More 1965 Italy Sergio Leone
Au Hasard Balthazar 1966 France Robert Bresson
Blow Up 1966 UK/Italy Michelangelo Antonioni
Closely Watched Trains 1966 Czech Jirí Menzel
Bonnie and Clyde 1967 USA
The Graduate 1967 USA Mike Nichols
Dragon Inn 1967 Taiwan King Hu
2001: A Space Odyssey 1968 UK Stanley Kubrick
Once Upon a Time in the West 1968 USA Sergio Leone
Stolen Kisses 1968 France François Truffaut
Kuroneko/Black Cat 1968 Japan Kaneto Shindô
KES 1969 UK Ken Loach

And the maybes:
NO Rebel Without a Cause 1955 USA Nicholas Ray
NO Forbidden Planet 1956 USA Fred M Wilcox
NOT QUITE Il Grido 1957 Italy Michelangelo Antonioni
NO The Cranes are Flying 1957 USSR Mikhail Kalatozov
NO Cleo from 5 to 7 1962 France Agnès Varda
NO Le Mepris 1963 France Jean Luc Godard
NO Bay of Angels 1963 France Jacques Demy
NO Pierrot Le Fou 1965 France Jean Luc Godard

NO The Battle of Algiers 1966 Algeria Gillo Pontecorvo
NO Persona 1966 Sweden Ingmar Bergman



The answer is...

42.
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McCabe and Mrs Miller 1971 USA Robert Altman
A Touch of Zen 1971 Taiwan King Hu
The Godfather 1972 USA Francis Ford Copolla
La Cousin Jules 1973 France (documentary)
Mean Streets 1973 USA Martin Scorsese
Chinatown 1974 USA Roman Polanski
The Godfather Part 2 1974 USA Francis Ford Copolla
Fear Eats the Soul 1974 Germany Rainer Fassbender
Barry Lyndon 1975 UK Stanley Kubrick
Killer of Sheep 1977 USA Charles Burnett
Apocalypse Now 1979 USA Francis Ford Copolla
Alien 1979 USA Ridley Scott
Koyaanisqatsi 1982 USA Godfrey Reggio (documentary)
The King of Comedy 1982 USA Martin Scorsese
E.T. The Extra Terrestrial 1982 USA Steven Spielberg
Entre Nous 1983 France Diane Kurys
L'Argent 1983 France Robert Bresson
Stranger Than Paradise 1984 USA
The Runner 1984 Iran Amir Naderi
Homecoming 1984 Hong Kong Yim Ho
*Taipei Story 1985 Taiwan Edward Yang
Blue Velvet 1986 USA David Lynch
*When Harry Met Sally 1989 USA Rob Reiner
For All Mankind 1989 USA Al Reinert (documentary)


? Two Lane Blacktop 1971 USA Monte Hellman
? Don't Look Now 1973 UK Nicholas Roeg
?Badlands 1973 USA Terrance Mallick
?The Passenger 1975 Italy Michelangelo Antonioni
?The Mirror 1975 Soviet Union Andrei Tarkovsky
? Kings of the Road 1975 Germany Wim Wenders
? Jaws 1975 USA Steven Spielberg
? Taxi Driver 1976 USA Martin Scorsese
?Superman 1978 USA Richard Donner
?Body Heat 1981 USA Lawrence Kasdan
?Paris, Texas 1984 USA Wim Wenders
?Ghostbusters 1984 USA Ivan Reitman
?Withnail & I 1987 UK Bruce Robinson

Same number as the 50s and 60s, although I did feel I dropped my standards a little for the 70s and 80s.

I've put a * against some I'm not 100% on, and also shunted a couple down into the ? list.



The answer is...

42.
I was told the answer was 69



I was told the answer was 69


@robert brother, as much as I love Withnail and I, it's no masterpiece.



An all-inclusive masterpiece needs to excel in every single aspect of filmmaking, and especially the aspect that can only be achieved in the medium of motion picture (as opposed to still pictures).



Victim of The Night
I also wonder whether there might be genre masterpieces, and then a level above that overall masterpieces?

Say something like The Terminator. I'd personally probably say it was a sci-fi masterpiece, but I wouldn't consider it an outright masterpiece?
I would want to push back on this.
The tendency in film and literary criticism to value Drama over all other genres and the tendency to diminish Science Fiction and Horror is problematic to me. It's kind of an implied superiority for a certain kind of story over another regardless of how good the story is or how well it's told. I can't support that.



An all-inclusive masterpiece needs to excel in every single aspect of filmmaking, and especially the aspect that can only be achieved in the medium of motion picture (as opposed to still pictures).
They don't actually move! It just goes to the next frame very quickly!

But in any case, there is a 'moving' image in La Jette, and it's a contender for the most genius moment in the history of films.
La Jette is on my MasterMasterpiece list, of that there can simply be no question, as the guy in Barry Lyndon would say.