The Force Awakens or The Last Jedi?

For 10 years, there were no new live-action Star Wars movies (and no, fan films don't count). Then the trailer for The Force Awakens dropped. People were hyped out of their MINDS. Yes, people were excited for The Phantom Menace as well, but this was supposed to be a brand new story, with characters both of new and old. Han, Leia, Luke! All three are back! Then the movie came out...

The initial audience reaction was positive, but criticism over the similiarities to A New Hope became frequent, and some didn't care for the new characters. Still, it didn't receive the same backlash The Phantom Menace has gotten over the years, so people still looked forward to the next chapter. Then The Last Jedi came out and...

It got even worse criticism than the last one, many going so far as to say it was the worst Star Wars movie ever made.

But what is your own opinion? Do you like one of these new installments, or maybe both of them? Or perhaps they are both trash. Either way, I want to know which one you prefer.

I'm not quite sure. It could be The Force Awakens, or it could be The Last Jedi. Both have their share of strengths and flaws. I'll have to rewatch them to decide.

I honestly don't know. I like and dislikes such different things about both. They scratch totally different itches.

I feel like The Force Awakens is more coherent and consistent, but that the highs of The Last Jedi are higher. The former had fewer "bad" moments but also fewer great ones.

As of writing, I have seen Force Awakens four times and Last Jedi twice - and I'm inclined to consider Last Jedi the superior film. The former film now reads like obligatory stage-setting for the trilogy as a whole more than a complete film in its own right and, while it's got its own strengths, there's a certain hollowness to the whole thing that stops me from considering it great. The latter film, on the other hand, has a better sense of what to build off and what to discard in telling its own continuation that feels more complete despite being the middle chapter in the trilogy.

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The Force Awakens, I'm not a Last Jedi hater like others but that 40 minute Rose sequence was Prequels level garbage

I've seen both once and have no desire to see either one again. Both are pretty bad films. I honestly don't know which I consider better but at least The Last Jedi did something right on the concept level (Rey's parents being nobodies and just killing Snoke who everyone expected to be the main villain of the trilogy).

The Last Jedi, because it's the best Star Wars film.

Neither are good films for me but as mentioned the issues between them are somewhat different. I think both suffer from Abrams rushed and confused style he brought over from Trek but TFA is I think a large unambitous nostalgia fest, the last Jedi clearly has more ambition and does I think succeed in some areas such as the Rey/Kylo interactions whilst also having very serious flaws and IMHO stepping back from its own concept having Rey reject Kylo.

I always hesitate to comment on "The Last Jedi" because the debates over it can go on and on and on. But here goes. "The Force Awakens" may borrow a little too much from the original "Star Wars" but the plot is a little more satisfying to me. At times the creators of"The Last Jedi" seem to be killing time while they check off the plot points they set out to accomplish for the next movie. Rian Johnson has gotten a lot of praise for subverting expectations but he doesn't offer any interesting plot twists in their place.
Personally I think many people are making too much out of some of it. The scene where Rey "discovers" she is alone is very much like the scene in "Empire" with Luke in the cave, where he faces the possibility he could become like his worst enemy. Rey's fear is that she is alone. Just because Ren, the bad guy, tells Rey her parents were nobodies doesn't make it so. And even it's true, Luke's adoptive parents were farmers on a desert planet.

Do you have evidence to support this?

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I thought the way they framed it was that Rey's more or less been in denial about the true nature of her parentage the whole time and it's taken the events of the two films (namely the Force-based visions she experiences in both Maz's tavern and the Ahch-To cavern in addition to her mind-melding with Ren) to make her admit that truth to herself (she's the first to say "they were no-one", at which point Ren elaborates out loud on their true nature as he himself learns it). Also, Luke's "adoptive parents" are irrelevant because a big part of Luke's journey is living his whole life thinking his biological father (who shared no blood relation with his aunt and uncle anyway) was nobody special only to learn that not only was his father a fighter pilot/Jedi knight (thus giving weight to his own dreams of becoming the same) but also that his father eventually became Darth Vader (which did the same for his fears about, like you said, becoming his own worst enemy). As a result, Rey's arc comes across as an inversion of this.

The plot of Force Awakens is a rushed mess for me introducing motivations for characters and then largely ignoring them in favour of a rapid fire action/humour/nostalgia thrill ride where the characters are almost entirely reactive. The original film might be a fairly simple heroes journey but I think its far more satisfying in the way its written, not to mention far sharper in its wit that Abrams terrible sitcom zingers and goofball humour.

The Last Jedi does I think at least look to give some depth to Rey's and Kylo's characters. The problem for me is that it feels like it backs down from its own concept having Rey reject Kylo outright and the characters retreat to very bland good/evil roles. Yes Luke rejects Vader in Empire but I would argue the concept there isn't that Luke is being drawn to the Darkside but that he has a rather simplistic view of heroism that's rather egotisical. The reveal of Vader as his father shatters that view and gives us the depth to the films climax. Last Jedi on the other hand feels like its pushing the idea that the Jedi/Sith and Good/Evil dictamony is highly questionable only to then retreat back to an even more simplified version of it. Personally I strongly suspect Johnsons original idea was to follow though on the concept but Disney baulked at it so we ended up with the tacked on ending.

Again though I think for me a flawed plot of substance beats a plot of almost no substance so I went with Last Jedi although equally I think the Rebel half of its story is also an empty illogical mess.

Iroquois, you and I agree about Luke's adoptive parents being irrelevant. My point was that the parents who raised Rey are not necessarily her biological parents. I think "The Last Jedi" tries to copy "Empire," including the scene where Luke confronts Vader about his father's death and learns the truth. In the original we were told Vader killed his father so the revelation was a shocker. We hadn't been told much of anything about Rey's parents, so the revelation in "The Last Jedi," if it's true, seems anticlimactic to me.
By the way, did "The Force Awakens" actually plant a mystery about Rey's parents or was that mostly conjecture by fans? I'm not asking rhetorically. It's been a while since I've seen it.

In regards to Rey's parents Simon Pegg is quoted as saying JJ intended something very different, then Rian came in and changed everything (according to Daisy Ridley). Apparently though that's hearsay and gossip accordingly to some around here.

I will underscore the root of my criticisms with TLJ (as well as most every movie I take issue with) with intent. Ultimately, I believe we are all looking at the same glass of water. We're given the same information. One sees a glass half empty, another half full. Still though, it's the same glass of information. You see your way not because someone chose to suggest it. They simply poured a glass of water. There's enough information for us both to take what we will from it.

I think it is wonderful that viewers can project plot, character arc, motive, etc., but what of that was by design or just optimistic assumption by the viewer? I think normally I am fine with that. We bring with us our histories to a movie and then our viewing of that movie is tinted by that experience. Fair. I took something very different from Mother! than what was probably intended. I think that is well and fine, as the movie's abstraction gives room for interpretation. Too, so much of that movie was strong enough to not be affected by my interpretation. Or, rather, misinterpretation?

My problem though is when I see so many little clumsy elements scattered throughout a movie, I then have to ask myself, "If the writer/director/producer/whoever didn't see these many issues and how those issues might affect a (large) portion of the audience, then how can I believe that they had the subtle awareness to place these more complex elements into play that other viewers are interpreting?" Is any of it stated or is this also simply positive projection by the viewer, similarly to how I've negatively projected onto the movie? The difference for me is that I'm refusing to give it the benefit of the doubt after several off-putting scenes (IMO).

So in that sense, I really cannot forgive TLJ by waving a pass on some more interesting thoughts that other viewers have interpreted. I just do not believe that was ever intended based on poor quality elsewhere.

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I think it might be over-complicating matters to question whether or not the parents referenced throughout the films are Rey's biological parents, especially when they go on to establish that one's parentage (biological or otherwise) and upbringing doesn't matter all that much in the grand scheme of things (as further reflected by the main villain being the son of two heroes). We don't get told much about Rey's parents because we're meant to see them like she does - as an extremely vaguely-defined but nevertheless all-important source of hope. The throughline in Force Awakens is that she's spent her whole life desperately waiting for them to return for her (a hope that keeps her going in the inhospitable scavenger world of Jakku and even makes her want to return there after she finally leaves it) before eventually being made to realise by Force vision (and Maz Kanata) that they are in all probability never coming back for her and she needs to move on (which she does in part during Force Awakens, though she still feels the need to search for answers in a way that is ultimately concluded in Last Jedi).

I think the "mystery" part comes about because, when taking into consideration the parallels between Rey and Luke, one would assume that she's also been left on a desert planet due to some greater plan by important figures to protect her in a way that's related to her then-unestablished parentage. Regardless of whether or not there was already some plan in place to definitively answer that, it was easy enough to turn that into a source of conjecture.

I suppose it would depend on your interpretation of "clumsy". I could certainly describe any number of renowned classics in ways that would make their greatest strengths seem like intolerable weaknesses (like how Jaws is a movie about a killer shark that doesn't actually show the shark on screen until the last third of the movie), besides which there's always the possibility that creators prioritise complex elements over superficial ones precisely because they trust their audience to be able to understand and process the important parts of the film in ways that theoretically make up for the most readily-observable flaws that would get quote-unquote nitpicked by people who were missing the proverbial forest for the trees. The idea that creators should accommodate mass audience expectations when making their films is a troublesome one because you're always risking making something incredibly bland and homogenous (which I daresay was the main criticism levelled at Force Awakens and its blatant attempts at being a crowd-pleasing blockbuster). That being said, I will acknowledge that claiming intent only matters so much if it doesn't show through in the actual execution, but I'd still say that Last Jedi works well enough in that regard that most (if not all) of the complaints people repeat about it really don't bother me.

It is good that they do not bother you. And I mean that sincerely. They do bother others though and because you do not agree, that does not downplay criticism. Still much of this is interpretation. You seem to place less value on elements that are glaring to me. Which is absolutely fine. That does not in anyway diminish my opinions of the movie though, or anyone else wishing to nitpick. Actually, I don't feel the possibly third of the movie's sidetrack to nowhere is nitpicking.

There are GREAT moments in this one. For me and others those moments are watered down by what else filled the run time.

Replied via mobile atm so shorter than I'd like.

Edit:
Id add that complaints aren't necessarily parrot repeats. More that the issues were so obvious to those bothered by such issues more than a few noticed. I mean if everyone at the table complained about the food that doesn't mean they're only repeating what they heard. Don't invalidate opinion because its the same conclusion others have drawn. Maybe the food actually was bad.


...to some relative standard.

Also thanks for the reply!

It's just interesting to think about why certain aspects do or don't bother people and whether or not that results in criticisms that I can concede. I certainly don't think of Last Jedi as a "perfect" movie (if only because I don't think such a thing could ever exist anyway), but at the same time I'm hard-pressed to think of anything from the movie that I actually considered a serious problem.

I think that's totally fair.

Some people absolutely hate pineapple on pizza. I love pineapple. I love pizza. But put one with the other and I'm revolted. The one addition totally ruins the entire thing for me. Can't explain it. Just plays out that way for some of us with one thing, for others it's another thing.

=/

But yeah. It is interesting to wonder why things affect us all differently.