The MoFo Top 100 Musicals Countdown

→ in
Tools    





RIP www.moviejustice.com 2002-2010
I haven't seen La La land. It just feels like a premise that's been done way too many times.
Actually, the premise of La La Land is the best thing about it. I love, love, LOVE the premise behind the film... however, some of the pacing, editing, camerawork, writing and direction of the story, worldview, etc... not so much.

First of all a couple things before I get into a couple of my specific criticisms of La La Land... I rate it as a B+ or A- film. I also didn't watch it until a couple years ago and that was primarily because it was so heralded on MoFo and also because I do like Ryan Gosling in many of his roles... his best being Blue Valentine with his best film being a toss up between Drive and Blade Runner 2049. A third reason I watched it was because I had read it was a throwback to old Hollywood musicals and an ode and homage to that era of filmmaking. Cool.

So on paper I loved the idea and concept of La La Land and I think anyone who is a huge movie buff... especially if you're like me and prefer the Golden Age of Hollywood and the old studio system era over present day films, on the whole that is.

I love the fact that La La Land references some of the greatest musicals like The Umbrellas of Cherbourg and An American in Paris as well as directly having nods of the hat to films like Rebel Without a Cause. But all of this felt empty and superficially treated by the story and the direction.

You are right in the premise of La La Land being done several times, but I would agree on the career vs love aspect. Just as every film that chooses to have the "it was all just a dream" owes a debt to The Wizard of Oz, nearly every film that has the woman choosing between her love and her career owes a debt to The Red Shoes.

Aside from some poor blocking and camera movement. Take the "Another Day of Sun" freeway opening. How more of that wasn't done in long shot or mid shot and how it was coreographed more strongly, I'll never know. Yes the center of attention (coat) of the camera moved from person to person, but everything around it looked so sloppily done and if you were to pause the film at any moment during that sequence... the framing/mise en scene wouldn't be balanced... there would be cars half in and half out of frame, some characters would be standing around more others dancing... some in focus some out... no real attempt to follow any rule of thirds or aesthetic framing of the shot. It was just a complete mess, despite being a very cool and clever idea. And I get that we are in a time of constant camera movement and tracking shots, but Hell Scorsese could do that, Paul Thomas Anderson could do that, and even Vincente Minnelli in his musicals had some wonderful tracking shots. From what I see in La La Land, Damien Chazelle is just not that great of a director.

Another scene where this is apparent is his butchering of what could have been a beautifully shot scene or moment when Ryan Gosling and Emma Stone are at the Griffith Park Observatory in their breakup scene... which from a writing, pacing, and editing standpoint is just horribly inserted and pops into the film suddenly out of nowhere. In fact I had to rewatch that scene and the several minutes before and after it several times just to make sure I didn't miss anything because it felt like there was a scene missing or something had gotten cut out of the film.

But yeah, if you're a director and grip USE the area and USE the location to its full potential! The fact that we don't really see the beauty of the background and the Hollywood hills and the colors of sky is criminal. Use a deep focus lens and then also place these two wonderful actors where we can get a mid shot of them both in frame so we see both their faces simultaneously rather than over the shoulder close up of one and then the back of the head of another and rinse and repeat. Use some great mid shots, deep focus lens... capture the beauty of these actors, the beauty of the scene, and the beauty of what should be a great scene. Instead we get out of focus, one actor's face at a time, blurry background that essentially looks like a zoom call. Also if you specifically analyze this scene... who the Hell did the movie rushes or screenings of this because on a handful of shots and frames we have tree branches and trunks in the background coming out of Ryan Gosling's head. Anyone who has taken a high school photography class or has done yearbook knows that this is a huge "no, no." Always position the subject of your shot so that they are not frame with light posts, trees, telephone polls, goalposts, etc sticking straight up out of their head that are located behind them.

This is so strange too because the one sequence where they are dancing in the evening on the balcony overlooking L.A. with the sunset (the sequence that is featured in most pictures and posters of the film) is very well done, despite Gosling and Emma Stone not being able to dance well. Ryan Gosling has danced far better on the Mickey Mouse Club and if Debbie Reynolds could learn steps in Singin' in the Rain, Emma Stone could have perhaps done a bit more and if not, maybe she was a bit miscast.

Another big complaint is with the ending. I love the dream sequence and homage there, but how the film suddenly skips five years and she's a big film star... OK, but since the entire premise of the film leading up to this point is that she really REALLY needs to dedicate herself to following her dreams and that somehow means she can't have a relationship with Goslings character... to only five years later find herself married to some rando with a kid? Honestly. What the Hell? It's just silly and poorly done. So if the film is undermining its own premise that she does the right thing in choosing her career over her love for Ryan Gosling and his dream of having his own night club and playing real jazz... why then do we see her married and with a kid five years later. Is it just that her dreams weren't compatible with Ryan Gosling's dreams, but somehow this other dude she's with... that's OK?

I could go on and continue to do a deep dive with how La La Land is such a deeply flawed and mess of a film, one with a brilliant premise that could have been so amazing in the right hands. Oh well.

I will say, a film in a similar vein, at least in so far as being a send up to the Hollywood of the past that IS perfectly executed and amazing and well done is The Artist. So I get what La La Land was going for and it's a good film, but it's a shame it wasn't so much more and was handled by a more proficient team of filmmakers. If ever there was a case for the assembly line of experts, artists, and craftsmen working together to mold a great piece of art, it would be La La Land.

Also, I was totally and completely wrong about my top five, both of which I had predicted La La Land and The Rocky Horror Picture Show would be in. Not too be a complete contrarian, but I am glad neither of these two landed in the top 10. This actually gives me great hope for my number one pick... possibly, just maybe... just perhaps showing up in the top 10 because it truly is the greatest musical of all time and I'll argue that and debate that and fight for that stance until I'm blue in the face and down to my last drop of blood.

Finally moviewise... a youtuber who is by far, who I find to be, the most in depth and analytical film critic and analyst on the interwebs, has broken down several aspects of La La Land too and demonstrates where is has massive shortcoming and in some spots is very amateurish.



[url="
[/URL]
__________________
"A candy colored clown!"
Member since Fall 2002
Top 100 Films, clicky below

http://www.movieforums.com/community...ad.php?t=26201



I didn't care for Rocky Horror Picture Show. Music didn't click, story was instantly forgettable. Felt very overhyped for one of the movies most strongly associated with the phrase "it later developed a cult following".

I'm more of a Premier Cherdenko kind of Tim Curry enjoyer.

__________________
Movie Reviews | Anime Reviews
Top 100 Action Movie Countdown (2015): List | Thread
"Well, at least your intentions behind the UTTERLY DEVASTATING FAULTS IN YOUR LOGIC are good." - Captain Steel



Victim of The Night
It's true, I expected both to be too 5-7 or so. I was actually wondering if Rocky Horror would be an upset #1-3, knocking some of the classics out of the way.
I can only say from years on this and other forums where many people here have been that I am actually very surprised to see it this high. I usually get a significant level of incredulity at how much I like it.



Victim of The Night
You should be made to watch the whole of Young Girls of Rochefort as a penalty.
That's hardly a penalty.



RIP www.moviejustice.com 2002-2010
Here's a deep dive from moviewise on the musical numbers in La La Land and why they don't really live up to the standards of the old MGM and Vincente Minnelli musicals in which the film is paying tribute toward. La La Land was probably one of my biggest disappointment films and let downs going in to it with high expectations.




Here's a deep dive from moviewise on the musical numbers in La La Land and why they don't really live up to the standards of the old MGM and Vincente Minnelli musicals in which the film is paying tribute toward. La La Land was probably one of my biggest disappointment films and let downs going in to it with high expectations.

It's just a beautiful love story.

I don't care too much about the songs one way or another, although the audition is very memorable.

But the film just captivates you. I'm not sure if I said it on here, but for me it's the one thing that could make me stop my equivalent of a baby having a crying tantrum, and just instantly forget about that and be mesmerised by this beautiful affair, like I've just been given my bottle or my rattle.
The ending......wow.....there's nothing else like it I've seen in cinema. I find it overhwhelming, time after time.
Some of the scenes look a bit naff, but man I can let that go because this is what the movies were invented for.

I thought its biggest influence btw was Umbrellas of Cherbourg. To me it's essentially a remake.



The Rocky Horror Picture Show was #22 on my ballot. It might've made it higher had I rewatched it, but it's very good.

La La Land is fine and I remember enjoying it a lot in the theaters, but I haven't felt an urge to rewatch it. It's the kind of film which I suspect won't hold up well.
__________________
IMDb
Letterboxd



1. All That Jazz
2. Dancer in the Dark
4. The Burden
6. Inside Llewyn Davis
7. The Young Girls of Rochefort
8. Top Hat
12. Duck Soup
16. Meet Me in St. Louis
17. The Music Man
20. The Nightmare Before Christmas
22. The Rocky Horror Picture Show



RIP www.moviejustice.com 2002-2010
By the way... to really try to illustrate my criticism of the Griffith Park Observatory scene in La La Land and why it's poor amateurish direction, let's contrast that scene with a different from one from a film that is in my top 10 of all time: Amelie.

Here, and yes it's slightly spliced together for youtube here (showing the gnome bits), but Jean Pierre Jeunet does it right when having two people talk to each other in showing both faces in the conversation simultaneously without relying on cutting back and forth between over the shoulder shots, which is sooo uncreative and lazy.

It's a beautiful scene and especially the outdoor moment where we here the ambient sounds of the wind and the birds chirping... in fact that short 30 second shot or so, is probably one of the closet moments a person could feel to being outside on a beautiful, lazy, breezy, spring or summer day.

Amelie is... and pardon my French, and the lame pun, just a ****ing masterpiece in how staging, direction, sound, and shot composition should be done and when compared to a similar outdoor scene of two people talking together in La La Land, it just puts it to shame. In addition, notice how when Amelie walks in to talk to her father we hear the sounds of the interior door opening and shutting, then we see her blurred image through the window pane, then we hear the door hinges creak open and shut all while also hearing the music in the background AND the slight metallic clink/clanking of the father's paintbrush on ceramic paint cup he's using. That's all in five seconds of film.

Folks... this is how it done and that movie is so amazing on a million levels.




Aside from some poor blocking and camera movement. Take the "Another Day of Sun" freeway opening. How more of that wasn't done in long shot or mid shot and how it was coreographed more strongly, I'll never know. Yes the center of attention (coat) of the camera moved from person to person, but everything around it looked so sloppily done and if you were to pause the film at any moment during that sequence... the framing/mise en scene wouldn't be balanced... there would be cars half in and half out of frame, some characters would be standing around more others dancing... some in focus some out... no real attempt to follow any rule of thirds or aesthetic framing of the shot. It was just a complete mess, despite being a very cool and clever idea. And I get that we are in a time of constant camera movement and tracking shots, but Hell Scorsese could do that, Paul Thomas Anderson could do that, and even Vincente Minnelli in his musicals had some wonderful tracking shots. From what I see in La La Land, Damien Chazelle is just not that great of a director.

Another scene where this is apparent is his butchering of what could have been a beautifully shot scene or moment when Ryan Gosling and Emma Stone are at the Griffith Park Observatory in their breakup scene... which from a writing, pacing, and editing standpoint is just horribly inserted and pops into the film suddenly out of nowhere. In fact I had to rewatch that scene and the several minutes before and after it several times just to make sure I didn't miss anything because it felt like there was a scene missing or something had gotten cut out of the film.

But yeah, if you're a director and grip USE the area and USE the location to its full potential! The fact that we don't really see the beauty of the background and the Hollywood hills and the colors of sky is criminal. Use a deep focus lens and then also place these two wonderful actors where we can get a mid shot of them both in frame so we see both their faces simultaneously rather than over the shoulder close up of one and then the back of the head of another and rinse and repeat. Use some great mid shots, deep focus lens... capture the beauty of these actors, the beauty of the scene, and the beauty of what should be a great scene. Instead we get out of focus, one actor's face at a time, blurry background that essentially looks like a zoom call. Also if you specifically analyze this scene... who the Hell did the movie rushes or screenings of this because on a handful of shots and frames we have tree branches and trunks in the background coming out of Ryan Gosling's head. Anyone who has taken a high school photography class or has done yearbook knows that this is a huge "no, no." Always position the subject of your shot so that they are not frame with light posts, trees, telephone polls, goalposts, etc sticking straight up out of their head that are located behind them.

This is so strange too because the one sequence where they are dancing in the evening on the balcony overlooking L.A. with the sunset (the sequence that is featured in most pictures and posters of the film) is very well done, despite Gosling and Emma Stone not being able to dance well. Ryan Gosling has danced far better on the Mickey Mouse Club and if Debbie Reynolds could learn steps in Singin' in the Rain, Emma Stone could have perhaps done a bit more and if not, maybe she was a bit miscast.

Another big complaint is with the ending. I love the dream sequence and homage there, but how the film suddenly skips five years and she's a big film star... OK, but since the entire premise of the film leading up to this point is that she really REALLY needs to dedicate herself to following her dreams and that somehow means she can't have a relationship with Goslings character... to only five years later find herself married to some rando with a kid? Honestly. What the Hell? It's just silly and poorly done. So if the film is undermining its own premise that she does the right thing in choosing her career over her love for Ryan Gosling and his dream of having his own night club and playing real jazz... why then do we see her married and with a kid five years later. Is it just that her dreams weren't compatible with Ryan Gosling's dreams, but somehow this other dude she's with... that's OK?

I could go on and continue to do a deep dive with how La La Land is such a deeply flawed and mess of a film, one with a brilliant premise that could have been so amazing in the right hands. Oh well.

I will say, a film in a similar vein, at least in so far as being a send up to the Hollywood of the past that IS perfectly executed and amazing and well done is The Artist. So I get what La La Land was going for and it's a good film, but it's a shame it wasn't so much more and was handled by a more proficient team of filmmakers. If ever there was a case for the assembly line of experts, artists, and craftsmen working together to mold a great piece of art, it would be La La Land.

Also, I was totally and completely wrong about my top five, both of which I had predicted La La Land and The Rocky Horror Picture Show would be in. Not too be a complete contrarian, but I am glad neither of these two landed in the top 10. This actually gives me great hope for my number one pick... possibly, just maybe... just perhaps showing up in the top 10 because it truly is the greatest musical of all time and I'll argue that and debate that and fight for that stance until I'm blue in the face and down to my last drop of blood.

Finally moviewise... a youtuber who is by far, who I find to be, the most in depth and analytical film critic and analyst on the interwebs, has broken down several aspects of La La Land too and demonstrates where is has massive shortcoming and in some spots is very amateurish.
All of this is genuinely insightful and an education, but this is not a film that you watch for its technical prowess.
With some saving graces, it's generally a pile of crap technically. I know next to nothing next to you, but I can see that.
But, aside from Stone's I think exceptional performance, the film is about the heart. That's it. If you are going to fully appreciate it, you don't watch it, you certainly don't analytically critique it. You feel it. And then it will knock you out/blow you away, or whatever you go to the movies to be done to you.


But I also respect your deeply considered and informed opinion.



I haven't seen La La land. It just feels like a premise that's been done way too many times.
I know some people really love La La Land, but to me it was a pretty soulless experience. And I'm a huge fan of Ryan Gosling and Emma Stone, and specifically I find them together really likable. (If you haven't seen the clip of them dying of laughter at Emma's story about her panic attack when Gosling picked her up for a dance move in Crazy Stupid Love, please see below and you're welcome.)

There is basically no character development, nor any compelling development of the central relationship. The plot is stringing together musical numbers . . . but the musical numbers shine in some technical aspects but are kind of hollow. I'd still generally recommend the film, but it didn't come anywhere near making my list.




I considered voting for Rocky Horror but it didn't quite make it. Back in the 90's when I worked at the airport, I made a spare set of keys for the van I used to drive out around the planes and would steal it on the weekends. It had a flashing light on the top and I would pick up a bunch of friends, get a keg, and park right in front of the cinema for the midnight showing in Harvard Square. We'd be among the first in line and we would feed everyone who joined us cups of beer. Sometimes we would get thrown out or chased around by the police, but we would always come back. It's just that for as much fun as I had due to the audience participation, I thought of it as a bad movie. I've seen bits and pieces on TV but never really gave the film a fair shot. Curry and a couple of those songs are great though no doubt.

My wife and I really enjoyed La La Land, but for some reason I have since developed these negative feelings towards it that I can't explain. Probably unfair so I shat it on to the tail end of my ballot.

1. The Blues Brothers (#19)
5. Charlotte's Web (#79)
7. Stingray Sam (#46)
9. Hedwig and the Angry Inch (#15)
10. The Lure (#51)
11. Yankee Doodle Dandy (#32)
13. Dancer in the Dark (#20)
14. A Star is Born 2018 (#43)
15. Sing Street (#40)
16. Once (#25)
17. Calamity Jane (#84)
20. Sweeney Todd: The Demon Barber of Fleet Street (#66)
21. A Star is Born 1954 (#67)
22. La La Land (#13)
23. Pink Floyd - The Wall (#41)
24. The Young Girls of Rochefort (#36)
25. 42nd Street (#76)



Still haven't seen The Rocky Horror Picture Show and I tried watching La La Land but didn't make it past the 10 minute mark. Those ten minutes convinced me to avoid Babylon. I did like Whiplash for the most part.



And Rocky Horror was my #3. I have so much affection for it as a film, I love the music, and like many people, it's a movie I've experienced in wonderful crowd settings two different times in addition to just at-home viewings.



Yeah, don't get the lasting impact of La La Land. It was like the best movie in the world while you're watching it, but once it's over, it's over for you too. Great movies are the opposite... Brief Encounter from 70+ years prior kicks it's butt btw... hell, I even prefer the less celebrated, but livelier Crazy Stupid Love which Takoma11 mentioned.
__________________
HEI guys.



RIP www.moviejustice.com 2002-2010

My wife and I really enjoyed La La Land, but for some reason I have since developed these negative feelings towards it that I can't explain. Probably unfair so I shat it on to the tail end of my ballot.
I know I felt similarly. I think because it was sooo built up, part of it was just a bit of a let down for reasons I went into previously today in this thread. My initial thought was to give it an A- rating, but really it may be a B+ Not that's there's any kind of rubric I'm using outside of just loosely and tentatively going through aspects of it in my head. I thought about also putting it low on my list like around 23, 24, or 25, but then I realized IF I did put it on my list I wouldn't be honest with myself, and felt more pressure to do so because I wanted a "well rounded" list in terms of having films represent multiple decades and to get something in there more modern. After all, the most recent film I had on my list in Dancer in the Dark from 2000. But I didn't include it because, it just isn't as great as I would have liked to it have been and I don't think it's a serious contender for a list of top 10 or even 25 greatest musicals of all time... especially considering some of what I would have had to cut to include it just for the sake of having something "new" on my list.



It’s A Classic Rope-A-Dope
Nah, I still say it will be the Disney big cat thing. I hope you're right though!
I think Singing as well, and don’t think the big cat thing will even be top Disney
__________________
Letterboxd

#JusticeForHamilton